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so_many_ocs's review against another edition
4.0
Content Warnings
Graphic: Sexual assault, Sexual content, and Violence
bluejayreads's review against another edition
adventurous
dark
emotional
fast-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
5.0
This is a hard book to review. Not because it was bad, or even because I'm ambivalent about it - on the contrary, it was spectacular and I loved it. Even having read the first book nearly two years ago, it didn't take me long to get back into the story. It kept me engaged throughout and even got my heart speeding up in a few particularly tense scenes. It was, above all, astonishingly good.
And I think that's a large part of what makes it hard to review. I can't share all the emotions it made me feel by writing *about* it. To get the full experience, you have to read it yourself. It's vivid and intense and full of twists I didn't see coming but probably should have and the kind of book that leaves you completely exhausted at the end because you've been feeling so much along the way.
Another part of what makes this hard to review is how utterly dark it is. The first book was dark, too, don't get me wrong. Zhu is not a good person. She is ruthless and ambitious and claims she is willing to sacrifice anything to reach her goal, and this book puts that to the test. This is also a book where Zhu starts to challenge the bounds of a likeable character. In the first book, she was ruthless and ambitious and violent and did a lot of really horrible things. But in the context of a world that would rather let her starve than inconvenience a man, it didn't seem unreasonable. In this book, she had reached some measure of security - though still under threat, she was one of the four dominant military and political powers of the area. But her ambition to be the *greatest* kept her pushing onwards, even as she destroyed others in the process. She was still a dynamic, compelling character and I never really stopped rooting for her, but as the book progressed I found myself repeatedly confronting the reality of her actions and not really being sure how to feel about them. In some ways, it feels weird to even apply moral judgements here, though I can't fully explain why. But eventually both I and Zhu were looking at the consequences of her ambitions and wondering if it was really worth all that.
(Yet another thing I appreciate about this series: None of the women in these books - whether or not you want to count Zhu and her ambiguous gender identity as a woman - are shamed for their ambition or treated any worse than the men for their crimes. The society is blatantly misogynistic, but the narrative refuses to be.)
General Ouyang was a major player in the last book, and he still is in this one, but to a lesser degree. Some of that is because of his arc. Following on the events from the climax of book one, his is an equal but opposite story to Zhu. While Zhu's ambitions propelled her to further heights, Ouyang's relentless pursuit of revenge drove him to further lows. Zhu's resolve clarified as Ouyang's mind descended into chaos. I found myself mainly feeling compassion as he destroyed himself on the teeth of his own self-loathing. I wish he could have had a better ending, but he was so far gone that I think he got the best he could.
This book, being the last in the series, was an ending for every character, though not all of them died. Writing-wise, their endings made sense, fit with their arcs, and felt narratively satisfying. On a personal level, so many of them deserved better. Xu Da deserved better. Ma deserved better. Ouyang deserved better. Even Baoxiang deserved better (he deserved better last book, and even before - he is yet another case of an antagonist who I really just feel bad for).
And this brings me to the final reason this book is so hard to review: There is just too much to say. I haven't said anything about Baoxiang's story, even though he was a point of view narrator. I haven't talked about the gender politics involved in this story, or the absolutely spot-on depictions of that very specific and hard-to-define type of sexual trauma where you have sex when you really don't want to or with someone you don't want to have sex with as a means to get something else, or the theme of being seen in a gendered body (and, to a lesser extent, a visibly disabled body), or how it's paced so well that it feels like so much is happening without ever feeling rushed or monotonous, or the really awesome historical setting, or the ghosts.
If I talked about every amazing thing in this book, I could go on forever. But I've focused this review mainly on the characters, because despite all the action and adventure and ghosts and politics and invasions, this is a story about these characters and how their actions, good, bad, or otherwise, shape (and often end) the lives of the people around them and, ultimately, the course of history. This feels like a book (and, honestly, a series) that you could keep re-reading and discover something new every time. (It helps that these books are *long*.) So few sequels live up to their predecessor, but this one does - but it's also unique to the point where I can't say whether *She Who Became the Sun* or *He Who Drowned the World* is better because they're both so good for different reasons and in different ways.
I'm running out of eloquent ways to say "this is an amazing book, you should read the whole series," so there you go. This is an amazing book. So was the first one. You should read both - especially if you like stories that show your emotions no mercy.
And I think that's a large part of what makes it hard to review. I can't share all the emotions it made me feel by writing *about* it. To get the full experience, you have to read it yourself. It's vivid and intense and full of twists I didn't see coming but probably should have and the kind of book that leaves you completely exhausted at the end because you've been feeling so much along the way.
Another part of what makes this hard to review is how utterly dark it is. The first book was dark, too, don't get me wrong. Zhu is not a good person. She is ruthless and ambitious and claims she is willing to sacrifice anything to reach her goal, and this book puts that to the test. This is also a book where Zhu starts to challenge the bounds of a likeable character. In the first book, she was ruthless and ambitious and violent and did a lot of really horrible things. But in the context of a world that would rather let her starve than inconvenience a man, it didn't seem unreasonable. In this book, she had reached some measure of security - though still under threat, she was one of the four dominant military and political powers of the area. But her ambition to be the *greatest* kept her pushing onwards, even as she destroyed others in the process. She was still a dynamic, compelling character and I never really stopped rooting for her, but as the book progressed I found myself repeatedly confronting the reality of her actions and not really being sure how to feel about them. In some ways, it feels weird to even apply moral judgements here, though I can't fully explain why. But eventually both I and Zhu were looking at the consequences of her ambitions and wondering if it was really worth all that.
(Yet another thing I appreciate about this series: None of the women in these books - whether or not you want to count Zhu and her ambiguous gender identity as a woman - are shamed for their ambition or treated any worse than the men for their crimes. The society is blatantly misogynistic, but the narrative refuses to be.)
General Ouyang was a major player in the last book, and he still is in this one, but to a lesser degree. Some of that is because of his arc. Following on the events from the climax of book one, his is an equal but opposite story to Zhu. While Zhu's ambitions propelled her to further heights, Ouyang's relentless pursuit of revenge drove him to further lows. Zhu's resolve clarified as Ouyang's mind descended into chaos. I found myself mainly feeling compassion as he destroyed himself on the teeth of his own self-loathing. I wish he could have had a better ending, but he was so far gone that I think he got the best he could.
This book, being the last in the series, was an ending for every character, though not all of them died. Writing-wise, their endings made sense, fit with their arcs, and felt narratively satisfying. On a personal level, so many of them deserved better. Xu Da deserved better. Ma deserved better. Ouyang deserved better. Even Baoxiang deserved better (he deserved better last book, and even before - he is yet another case of an antagonist who I really just feel bad for).
And this brings me to the final reason this book is so hard to review: There is just too much to say. I haven't said anything about Baoxiang's story, even though he was a point of view narrator. I haven't talked about the gender politics involved in this story, or the absolutely spot-on depictions of that very specific and hard-to-define type of sexual trauma where you have sex when you really don't want to or with someone you don't want to have sex with as a means to get something else, or the theme of being seen in a gendered body (and, to a lesser extent, a visibly disabled body), or how it's paced so well that it feels like so much is happening without ever feeling rushed or monotonous, or the really awesome historical setting, or the ghosts.
If I talked about every amazing thing in this book, I could go on forever. But I've focused this review mainly on the characters, because despite all the action and adventure and ghosts and politics and invasions, this is a story about these characters and how their actions, good, bad, or otherwise, shape (and often end) the lives of the people around them and, ultimately, the course of history. This feels like a book (and, honestly, a series) that you could keep re-reading and discover something new every time. (It helps that these books are *long*.) So few sequels live up to their predecessor, but this one does - but it's also unique to the point where I can't say whether *She Who Became the Sun* or *He Who Drowned the World* is better because they're both so good for different reasons and in different ways.
I'm running out of eloquent ways to say "this is an amazing book, you should read the whole series," so there you go. This is an amazing book. So was the first one. You should read both - especially if you like stories that show your emotions no mercy.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Violence, Blood, Death, Sexual content, Injury/Injury detail, Self harm, and Grief
Moderate: Infidelity, Ableism, Sexual assault, Suicidal thoughts, Murder, Child death, Homophobia, and Misogyny
Minor: Death of parent and Miscarriage
Body dysmorphia, that complicated sexual trauma where you have sex when you don't really want to as a means to get something elsesoftanimal's review against another edition
dark
hopeful
sad
tense
5.0
Content Warnings
Graphic: Deadnaming, Fire/Fire injury, Outing, Panic attacks/disorders, Slavery, Rape, Vomit, Body shaming, Abortion, Injury/Injury detail, Miscarriage, War, Sexual content, Bullying, Misogyny, Suicidal thoughts, Torture, and Violence
artemisg's review against another edition
challenging
dark
tense
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.5
While this was a genuinely really great sequel, this book was a bit too brutal for my taste.
In this book, we follow Zhu on her journey to become the emperor. She hatches some insane plans and joins in a tentative alliance with Ouyang, the eunuch general. I genuinely really liked most of their dynamic, both being outsiders in their society and outsiders to themselves. In addition to Zhu and Ouyang, we see many more surprising alliances and follow more ruthless players in their quests for power. While I appreciated the attempts at complexity within the characters, there were slightly too many people being genuinely evil for my tastes and too much torture and abuse. Some of the torture has its place (the examinations of grief and pain were somewhat interesting), but most of it was gratuitous, and the point of the brutality of Mongol-occupied China would have come across without it.
Like the first book, I enjoyed the discussion of gender, power, and identity. It was interesting to see powerful women (who were still powerless in many ways). I didn’t like the absolute refusal to acknowledge any forms of emotional attachment, and I hated Baoxiang. Also, like the violence, there were a few too many violent sex scenes. It got to a point of gratuity, and while the relationships were complex and interesting, the sex was not. I did like how Parker-Chan weaved the different parties together into a coherent overall scheme, and it felt realistic that things happened that the characters weren’t aware of. Finally, Ma didn’t get enough screen time.
In this book, we follow Zhu on her journey to become the emperor. She hatches some insane plans and joins in a tentative alliance with Ouyang, the eunuch general. I genuinely really liked most of their dynamic, both being outsiders in their society and outsiders to themselves. In addition to Zhu and Ouyang, we see many more surprising alliances and follow more ruthless players in their quests for power. While I appreciated the attempts at complexity within the characters, there were slightly too many people being genuinely evil for my tastes and too much torture and abuse. Some of the torture has its place (the examinations of grief and pain were somewhat interesting), but most of it was gratuitous, and the point of the brutality of Mongol-occupied China would have come across without it.
Like the first book, I enjoyed the discussion of gender, power, and identity. It was interesting to see powerful women (who were still powerless in many ways). I didn’t like the absolute refusal to acknowledge any forms of emotional attachment, and I hated Baoxiang. Also, like the violence, there were a few too many violent sex scenes. It got to a point of gratuity, and while the relationships were complex and interesting, the sex was not. I did like how Parker-Chan weaved the different parties together into a coherent overall scheme, and it felt realistic that things happened that the characters weren’t aware of. Finally, Ma didn’t get enough screen time.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Violence, Self harm, Torture, War, and Sexual content
Moderate: Sexual violence
displacedcactus's review against another edition
dark
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
Given the high rating this book has here on SG (4.49 at the time I'm writing this) it has clearly found its audience. That audience does not, unfortunately, include me.
I'll admit that of the Sapphic Saffron Trifecta, I found She Who Became the Sun to be my least favorite. As such, I was really on the fence as to whether to read this one, but I figured hey, it's a duology, I might as well see things through to the end!
This started out as kind of a mid read for me, but I felt like it could get better. The thing is, I do like Zhu as a character. Yes, she does terrible things. But I found her drive and her absolute joy and confidence in her drive to be refreshing. Too often, we have characters who have to be forced to take action, who constantly whine and complain about it...
Like every single other character in this book. Ok, I exaggerate, but I got tired of the constant moping of Ouyang and Wang. Oh, woe is me, life is pain and darkness, I will make the world hate me as much as I hate it, etc etc etc. On and on and on. There were far too few Zhu chapters to make up for it.
At its heart, this is a story about how messed up toxic masculinity is and how people who fail to live up to a culture's idea of manly virtue can be used, abused, despised, and pigeon-holed.
At its heart it's also a book that is just absolutely chock-full of degrading sex, sado-masochism, torturous death, and long internal monologues about anger and self-hatred.
If you like to watch characters suffer, you will enjoy the heck out of this book. The pages are absolutely soaked with suffering. Personally, I just found it exhausting.
I'll admit that of the Sapphic Saffron Trifecta, I found She Who Became the Sun to be my least favorite. As such, I was really on the fence as to whether to read this one, but I figured hey, it's a duology, I might as well see things through to the end!
This started out as kind of a mid read for me, but I felt like it could get better. The thing is, I do like Zhu as a character. Yes, she does terrible things. But I found her drive and her absolute joy and confidence in her drive to be refreshing. Too often, we have characters who have to be forced to take action, who constantly whine and complain about it...
Like every single other character in this book. Ok, I exaggerate, but I got tired of the constant moping of Ouyang and Wang. Oh, woe is me, life is pain and darkness, I will make the world hate me as much as I hate it, etc etc etc. On and on and on. There were far too few Zhu chapters to make up for it.
At its heart, this is a story about how messed up toxic masculinity is and how people who fail to live up to a culture's idea of manly virtue can be used, abused, despised, and pigeon-holed.
At its heart it's also a book that is just absolutely chock-full of degrading sex, sado-masochism, torturous death, and long internal monologues about anger and self-hatred.
If you like to watch characters suffer, you will enjoy the heck out of this book. The pages are absolutely soaked with suffering. Personally, I just found it exhausting.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Sexual assault, Sexism, War, Rape, Sexual violence, Sexual content, Death, Ableism, Injury/Injury detail, Misogyny, Homophobia, Transphobia, Torture, and Violence
Moderate: Miscarriage and Fire/Fire injury
Minor: Animal death
minniestronni's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
dark
emotional
funny
mysterious
tense
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.75
Content Warnings
Graphic: Sexual violence, Sexual harassment, Biphobia, Blood, Sexual content, Rape, Toxic relationship, War, and Sexual assault
leweylibrary's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
dark
emotional
tense
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.75
The deduction is for the slowness which did drag on a little bit in spots, not as much as the first one, but honestly I liked this one so much more than the first one! It's such a good compliment to the first one, it really rounds out a lot of stuff that's set in motion in the first one in such a great way.
I love seeing how the characters have developed and continue to develop, especially Zhu and Ouyung. I love the symbolism with the Mandate of Heaven and it's light and the drowning, and I love how the book approaches and discusses gender identity and expression throughout.
This one was also definitely much more exciting with the big battles and crazy scenes (I'm NEVER going to forgot those pickled hands or Zhu convincing her army to drown itself and be resurrected to get through the ghosts to Chu's army . They really helped keep up the pace of the book overall. Also Ouyung's ending is so freaking shocking and sad, holy f. He didn't deserve that. But I think it makes sense for the story, like it does really shake Zhu to hear about it and to realize that she could meet a similar fate in not making her own fate come to fruition. </Spoiler>
I love seeing how the characters have developed and continue to develop, especially Zhu and Ouyung. I love the symbolism with the Mandate of Heaven and it's light and the drowning, and I love how the book approaches and discusses gender identity and expression throughout.
This one was also definitely much more exciting with the big battles and crazy scenes (I'm NEVER going to forgot
Content Warnings
Graphic: Kidnapping, Infertility, Blood, Ableism, Gore, Dysphoria, Murder, Miscarriage, Mental illness, Grief, Homophobia, Deadnaming, Child death, Body shaming, Body horror, Death, Sexual content, Injury/Injury detail, Torture, War, Physical abuse, Outing, and Violence
beandream's review against another edition
5.0
Content Warnings
Graphic: Rape, Violence, Torture, Suicidal thoughts, and Self harm
Moderate: War, Vomit, Grief, and Sexual content
Minor: Body shaming, Miscarriage, Dysphoria, Abortion, and Death
wordsofclover's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
tense
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? It's complicated
4.0
Zhu Yuanzhang, the Radiant King, is ready to make her next steps to bring her closer to the Great Khan and become Emperor. But to do this, she has to face up against her enemy, the General Ouyang, and convince him to work with her - all while at the same time other players move their own chess pieces to bring themselves closer to power and make it harder for Zhu to succeed.
This is a historical fantasy book that is so deep in character growth and journey as well as lore around the emergence of the Ming Dynasty - yet dipped in a bit of magic and identity exploration that makes it one of the most unique series I've ever read, and it's so well written. She Who Became the Sun and He Who Drowned the World are both books I had to read slowly. I needed to invest time into the world, and the characters and to understand them, their ambitions and their plans. I felt really invested in Zhu and I love her dynamic with many of those closest to her from Xu Da, Ma and Ouyang.
The way sexuality and gender is explored through a variety of characters in this book is excellent as the story looks at what it means to be a 'man' versus a 'woman' and how society can dictate how other look at you but also how you look at yourself if you allow society's ideas box you in.
I really enjoyed this second book - in a way I didn't even realise until I finished it and started to think about it more to review. I'm very excited to see what happens with book three and where Zhu goes from here.
This is a historical fantasy book that is so deep in character growth and journey as well as lore around the emergence of the Ming Dynasty - yet dipped in a bit of magic and identity exploration that makes it one of the most unique series I've ever read, and it's so well written. She Who Became the Sun and He Who Drowned the World are both books I had to read slowly. I needed to invest time into the world, and the characters and to understand them, their ambitions and their plans. I felt really invested in Zhu and I love her dynamic with many of those closest to her from Xu Da, Ma and Ouyang.
The way sexuality and gender is explored through a variety of characters in this book is excellent as the story looks at what it means to be a 'man' versus a 'woman' and how society can dictate how other look at you but also how you look at yourself if you allow society's ideas box you in.
I really enjoyed this second book - in a way I didn't even realise until I finished it and started to think about it more to review. I'm very excited to see what happens with book three and where Zhu goes from here.
Content Warnings
Moderate: Violence and Death
Minor: Sexual content
percys_panda_pillow_pet's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
dark
emotional
funny
sad
tense
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.5
Shelley Parker-Chan has really knocked it out of the park this time. For anyone who was worried the sequel to She Who Became the Sun wouldn't be as good, or even those who were maybe not as impressed with the first book, I think you will be amazed at He Who Drowned the World.
The book has a bit of a slow start admittedly. It's tough to follow up the ending of the first book and the crazy choices the characters made. But give it a little bit of time to get reinvested in the world and characters and you'll find that Parker-Chan did an incredible job of building off of where she left off. There are more POVs than before, but I didn't mind the inclusions at all. In fact, this book made me truly appreciate Ouyang's character and his downward spiral. All of the different narrators gave such depth to the main themes of loss, ambition, and what it means to be yourself.
We see all these become more and more hyperfocused on their "fates", losing themselves and who they used to be in the process. In some ways, their fervent pursuit of the future is just an extension of their fixation on the past that they can't let go. I was fascinated and horrified with the choices these characters made, that simultaneously a character can be cruel and yet undeserving of the cruelty thrust upon them. Madam Zhang, General Ouyang, Wang Baoxiang, and even our original main character, Zhu Yuanzhang all suffer from the same oppressive forces in society and fight back in their own ways, but more often than not end up working with the society that hurt them as they try to defy it.
If you enjoy character deconstructions, character's descent into self-destruction, and examining the way that a society can hurt different people in the same way, for not belonging or acting within the expectations thrust upon them, this is the book for you.
I also just have to add that my favorite parts were when Ouyang and Zhu interacted, they ended up accidentally being a hilarious comedy duo that really lightened the darker mood of the book haha.
The book has a bit of a slow start admittedly. It's tough to follow up the ending of the first book and the crazy choices the characters made. But give it a little bit of time to get reinvested in the world and characters and you'll find that Parker-Chan did an incredible job of building off of where she left off. There are more POVs than before, but I didn't mind the inclusions at all. In fact, this book made me truly appreciate Ouyang's character and his downward spiral. All of the different narrators gave such depth to the main themes of loss, ambition, and what it means to be yourself.
We see all these become more and more hyperfocused on their "fates", losing themselves and who they used to be in the process. In some ways, their fervent pursuit of the future is just an extension of their fixation on the past that they can't let go. I was fascinated and horrified with the choices these characters made, that simultaneously a character can be cruel and yet undeserving of the cruelty thrust upon them. Madam Zhang, General Ouyang, Wang Baoxiang, and even our original main character, Zhu Yuanzhang all suffer from the same oppressive forces in society and fight back in their own ways, but more often than not end up working with the society that hurt them as they try to defy it.
If you enjoy character deconstructions, character's descent into self-destruction, and examining the way that a society can hurt different people in the same way, for not belonging or acting within the expectations thrust upon them, this is the book for you.
I also just have to add that my favorite parts were when Ouyang and Zhu interacted, they ended up accidentally being a hilarious comedy duo that really lightened the darker mood of the book haha.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Grief, Death, Violence, Sexual content, Sexual violence, Misogyny, Rape, Murder, Sexism, War, Fire/Fire injury, Sexual assault, Sexual harassment, and Self harm
Moderate: Body horror, Pregnancy, Emotional abuse, Miscarriage, Transphobia, Vomit, Torture, Outing, Xenophobia, and Slavery