Scan barcode
samrher's review against another edition
4.0
kind of wild how much relevance there is in durkheim for today’s study of religion. there’s much to be desired from his method and approach but the theoretical ideas still seem to hold a lot of ground. best just to read like the first book though instead of the whole thing.
lastnameoptional's review against another edition
4.0
Durkheim's ideas about religion seem accurate and useful. I find myself thinking about them quite often, and I read this book months ago. That said, the second half of the book dragged on a bit.
Durkheim argues that philosophy and science originated in religion. Religion is social, meaning the idea at the root of our understanding, like number, space, time, and causation, are understood socially. For example, while one doesn’t need the concept of time to remember one’s past, the idea of one passageway that represents a sequence of events is “rich in social elements” as Durkheim carefully puts it, since it’s the same of everybody. He points to the calendar to backup his point, arguing that it divides time by regular units like years and weeks, in accordance to ritual rites, feasts, and public ceremonies.” To be clear, he’s not arguing that the categories are pure social constructions. Rather, social life shines light on the categories and makes them vivid. They were always laws of the objective world, we just notice them due to social life.
In the book’s first section, Durkheim critiques contemporary theories of religion at the time. He dispels notions that religion is of the supernatural or divine. The former fails because “primitives” didn’t see religious beliefs as mysterious or unnatural, but instead as totally simple and normal. “Divinity” assumes spiritual beings with superior powers, but major religions like Buddhism have nothing like this.
Durkheim believes that separating the world into the profane and sacred is one “distinctive trait of religious thought,” the “first criterion of religious belief.” This isn’t necessarily a hierarchical relationship. In one religion, humans throw pebbles at Gods to wake them up, for example. The sacred and profane are primarily characterized by just how different they are. Things like good and bad may seem opposite, but both share the trait of being moral categories. This belief in the sacred and profane leads to religious rites, which he defines as rules of conduct when in presence of the sacred.
Religion is very hostile to magic, and magicians often profane sacred things. He believes the main difference between the two is that religion implies a group, while magic doesn’t bind people together. There’s no church of magic. Hence why the magician’s use of sacred objects is seen as blasphemous.
Durkheim’s definition of religion is “a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, that is to say, things set apart and forbidden – beliefs and practices which unite into one single moral community called a Church, all those who adhere to them.” <47>
Durkheim wants to know why humanity splits the world into sacred and profane. He critiques ideas by his contemporaries that the sacred comes from the delusion. Some say that experiencing oneself as double creates the notion of the soul, or that our being overwhelmed by nature leads us to create the idea of the sacred. But nature is regular and everywhere, so it couldn’t have led to this bifurcation. He also argues that dreams wouldn’t necessarily lead to the idea of a double, it could also mean that the body changes during sleep. But your peers seeing you asleep would negate this possibility, which maybe fits into Durkheim’s insistence that sociality is ultimately behind religion.
No, humanity doesn’t get idea of the sacred from dreams or nature, we get it from what he calls totemism. He uses anthropology about Australian tribes which is now over a hundred years old to tease out his ideas. Unfortunately, much of this is predictably racist.
According to this anthropology, a tribe is made up of clans. Each clan considers others kin because they share a name and totem. The totem is usually of animals or plants, but occasionally inanimate objects like the wind or sun. Members of these clans often paint their totem on house ornaments and shields, or imprint them on their flesh. Oftentime this representation isn’t very accurate, only they would know what it is.
What the totem represents is treated as sacred. It’s forbidden to eat, and members of the clan see themselves as part of that species, and therefore also sacred. They have myths and stories which explain why they are related to the totem. This makes totemic religion explicitly not animal worship, since clan members worship themselves too. The totem unifies them.
So, where did this notion of the sacred come from? Durkheim believes it comes from the notion of mana, the first instance of the concept of “force.” In this case, a physical force with a moral character which demands the duty of respect. It’s seen as powerful and carries with it the duty of respect. The totem is a material expression of the clan and how its different than others.
And where do we get this idea of mana? From society. Society is like God, it’s a thing we feel dependent on, that has power over us, which demands our aid. It trumps our individual desire, but also gives us a sense of power and strength in the world, which trumps our desires and inclinations.
Durkheim argues that philosophy and science originated in religion. Religion is social, meaning the idea at the root of our understanding, like number, space, time, and causation, are understood socially. For example, while one doesn’t need the concept of time to remember one’s past, the idea of one passageway that represents a sequence of events is “rich in social elements” as Durkheim carefully puts it, since it’s the same of everybody. He points to the calendar to backup his point, arguing that it divides time by regular units like years and weeks, in accordance to ritual rites, feasts, and public ceremonies.” To be clear, he’s not arguing that the categories are pure social constructions. Rather, social life shines light on the categories and makes them vivid. They were always laws of the objective world, we just notice them due to social life.
In the book’s first section, Durkheim critiques contemporary theories of religion at the time. He dispels notions that religion is of the supernatural or divine. The former fails because “primitives” didn’t see religious beliefs as mysterious or unnatural, but instead as totally simple and normal. “Divinity” assumes spiritual beings with superior powers, but major religions like Buddhism have nothing like this.
Durkheim believes that separating the world into the profane and sacred is one “distinctive trait of religious thought,” the “first criterion of religious belief.” This isn’t necessarily a hierarchical relationship. In one religion, humans throw pebbles at Gods to wake them up, for example. The sacred and profane are primarily characterized by just how different they are. Things like good and bad may seem opposite, but both share the trait of being moral categories. This belief in the sacred and profane leads to religious rites, which he defines as rules of conduct when in presence of the sacred.
Religion is very hostile to magic, and magicians often profane sacred things. He believes the main difference between the two is that religion implies a group, while magic doesn’t bind people together. There’s no church of magic. Hence why the magician’s use of sacred objects is seen as blasphemous.
Durkheim’s definition of religion is “a unified system of beliefs and practices relative to sacred things, that is to say, things set apart and forbidden – beliefs and practices which unite into one single moral community called a Church, all those who adhere to them.” <47>
Durkheim wants to know why humanity splits the world into sacred and profane. He critiques ideas by his contemporaries that the sacred comes from the delusion. Some say that experiencing oneself as double creates the notion of the soul, or that our being overwhelmed by nature leads us to create the idea of the sacred. But nature is regular and everywhere, so it couldn’t have led to this bifurcation. He also argues that dreams wouldn’t necessarily lead to the idea of a double, it could also mean that the body changes during sleep. But your peers seeing you asleep would negate this possibility, which maybe fits into Durkheim’s insistence that sociality is ultimately behind religion.
No, humanity doesn’t get idea of the sacred from dreams or nature, we get it from what he calls totemism. He uses anthropology about Australian tribes which is now over a hundred years old to tease out his ideas. Unfortunately, much of this is predictably racist.
According to this anthropology, a tribe is made up of clans. Each clan considers others kin because they share a name and totem. The totem is usually of animals or plants, but occasionally inanimate objects like the wind or sun. Members of these clans often paint their totem on house ornaments and shields, or imprint them on their flesh. Oftentime this representation isn’t very accurate, only they would know what it is.
What the totem represents is treated as sacred. It’s forbidden to eat, and members of the clan see themselves as part of that species, and therefore also sacred. They have myths and stories which explain why they are related to the totem. This makes totemic religion explicitly not animal worship, since clan members worship themselves too. The totem unifies them.
So, where did this notion of the sacred come from? Durkheim believes it comes from the notion of mana, the first instance of the concept of “force.” In this case, a physical force with a moral character which demands the duty of respect. It’s seen as powerful and carries with it the duty of respect. The totem is a material expression of the clan and how its different than others.
And where do we get this idea of mana? From society. Society is like God, it’s a thing we feel dependent on, that has power over us, which demands our aid. It trumps our individual desire, but also gives us a sense of power and strength in the world, which trumps our desires and inclinations.
virtualmima's review against another edition
3.5
According to Durkheim's definition, a lot more things in our society than most would admit have the elementary components of religion, and I agree. Hopefully everyone can move past that way of thinking, but corporatism and franchises hold these structures in place and actively build more of them.
eelsmac's review against another edition
challenging
informative
reflective
slow-paced
2.75
Durkheim, as theory goes, is fascinating but his writing is quite...extra.
I wish we would have read out of this for my theory class instead of Division of Labor in Society and Suicide, mostly because I think with theory having others to discuss dense text with helps to make meaning out of it, and I feel like I'd be more likely to apply ideas from Elementary Forms of Religious Life as compared to Division of Labor and Suicide. Oh well.
I wish we would have read out of this for my theory class instead of Division of Labor in Society and Suicide, mostly because I think with theory having others to discuss dense text with helps to make meaning out of it, and I feel like I'd be more likely to apply ideas from Elementary Forms of Religious Life as compared to Division of Labor and Suicide. Oh well.
janegrace99's review against another edition
4.0
Fascinating and applicable... and also classic Durkheim (i.e. too many tangents and spending way too much time generalizing and pontificating, as all theoreticians have a tendency to do.)
abbsentminded's review against another edition
5.0
Must read for anyone into sociology or religion or sociology of religion.