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reflective
tense
medium-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
Plot
Strong character development:
No
Loveable characters:
Complicated
Diverse cast of characters:
Yes
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Complicated
Content Warnings
Minor: Incest, War
dark
reflective
fast-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
A mix
Strong character development:
Complicated
Loveable characters:
Complicated
Diverse cast of characters:
No
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
There's so much going on here, and this review is full of spoilers, so skip it if you don't want it ruined for you.
1.) Paul's on about trying to disengage the jihad all of Dune 1 and, to an extent, 2. There's this path of "discrediting himself" that he talks about, but at the end, the path he takes is one that doesn't discredit himself?? Duncan's literally reflecting on how Paul's final actions establish him as a religious figurehead for the Fremen people.
2.) There's clearly a theme here about Paul having no power over his power, and being mostly just aware of the flow of time but ultimately just as tossed about by it as everyone else. I get that. But also, he's so resistant to changing and stepping off the path in case one of the worse visions happen that he lets an incomprehensible genocide play out to avoid a somehow even worse incomprehensible genocide? Am I getting that right? There was no point at which he might've given an order to "no, leave that planet alone?" or "no, don't kill all those people?" That just...wouldn't have worked? What's Herbert trying to say, here? That certain pressures and rhetoric are unstoppably destructive?
3.) Chani and Irulan deserved better, but Chani deserved way, way better.
4.) The incest thing was extremely ick. As was Herbert sexualizing the crap out of a fourteen/fifteen year old girl's body. I don't give a fig about the acrobatics the story performs to make Alia a grown-up inside. This stuff isn't thought-up in a vacuum, and therefore it absolutely merits some major side eye. That alone knocked my enjoyment of this novel down multiple stars.
5.) Chani should've been given a voice to speak to Paul's decision making on her and their children's behalf. There was opportunity for good conflict there, and it floated out the window because Chani's reduced to an Ophelia, here.
And that's the center of the biggest issue for me--once again, we have all significant women characters ending up fridged or holding the short end of the stick. And Paul who I'd assumed would fall from power (based on how everyone talks about this book), ends up valorized by the very people he manipulated in the first book.
I'd find his fear of other futures more convincing if the text gave us more solidity and detail about those futures, but most of it is kept rather vague, and the only points that are expanded are the more personal, AU fates of Chani and their children. I'm just a little ?????
Like, what's the take, here? Poor Paul, he couldn't help but do an intergalactic genocide?
And to be clear--I was completely prepared and ready to witness some Shakespearean-level tragedy. I was not expecting a happy ending for anyone. But the sad ending I got was so disappointing, and there was no justice in it re: Paul, the empire, or the Fremen people. By the way this is talked about, I was expecting some fire post-colonial or anti-imperial commentary, and I was just underwhelmed on that front.
Duncan Idaho (Alia plot points WILDLY aside) was the main high point. That was interesting, and his coming back to himself was cool.
1.) Paul's on about trying to disengage the jihad all of Dune 1 and, to an extent, 2. There's this path of "discrediting himself" that he talks about, but at the end, the path he takes is one that doesn't discredit himself?? Duncan's literally reflecting on how Paul's final actions establish him as a religious figurehead for the Fremen people.
2.) There's clearly a theme here about Paul having no power over his power, and being mostly just aware of the flow of time but ultimately just as tossed about by it as everyone else. I get that. But also, he's so resistant to changing and stepping off the path in case one of the worse visions happen that he lets an incomprehensible genocide play out to avoid a somehow even worse incomprehensible genocide? Am I getting that right? There was no point at which he might've given an order to "no, leave that planet alone?" or "no, don't kill all those people?" That just...wouldn't have worked? What's Herbert trying to say, here? That certain pressures and rhetoric are unstoppably destructive?
3.) Chani and Irulan deserved better, but Chani deserved way, way better.
4.) The incest thing was extremely ick. As was Herbert sexualizing the crap out of a fourteen/fifteen year old girl's body. I don't give a fig about the acrobatics the story performs to make Alia a grown-up inside. This stuff isn't thought-up in a vacuum, and therefore it absolutely merits some major side eye. That alone knocked my enjoyment of this novel down multiple stars.
5.) Chani should've been given a voice to speak to Paul's decision making on her and their children's behalf. There was opportunity for good conflict there, and it floated out the window because Chani's reduced to an Ophelia, here.
And that's the center of the biggest issue for me--once again, we have all significant women characters ending up fridged or holding the short end of the stick. And Paul who I'd assumed would fall from power (based on how everyone talks about this book), ends up valorized by the very people he manipulated in the first book.
I'd find his fear of other futures more convincing if the text gave us more solidity and detail about those futures, but most of it is kept rather vague, and the only points that are expanded are the more personal, AU fates of Chani and their children. I'm just a little ?????
Like, what's the take, here? Poor Paul, he couldn't help but do an intergalactic genocide?
And to be clear--I was completely prepared and ready to witness some Shakespearean-level tragedy. I was not expecting a happy ending for anyone. But the sad ending I got was so disappointing, and there was no justice in it re: Paul, the empire, or the Fremen people. By the way this is talked about, I was expecting some fire post-colonial or anti-imperial commentary, and I was just underwhelmed on that front.
Duncan Idaho (Alia plot points WILDLY aside) was the main high point. That was interesting, and his coming back to himself was cool.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Addiction, Adult/minor relationship, Death, Drug abuse, Genocide, Incest, Infertility, Misogyny, Pedophilia, Sexism, Suicide, Violence, Death of parent, Pregnancy, Colonisation
adventurous
challenging
mysterious
reflective
medium-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
A mix
Strong character development:
Yes
Loveable characters:
Yes
Diverse cast of characters:
Yes
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
Content Warnings
Graphic: Drug abuse, Infertility, Cultural appropriation
Moderate: Adult/minor relationship, Grief, Murder, Pregnancy
Minor: Incest
dark
mysterious
slow-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
Character
Strong character development:
Complicated
Loveable characters:
Complicated
Diverse cast of characters:
Yes
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
This was interesting! Not as dense as the first, although the first third is filled with political and conspiring scenes that were slow for me. Herbert keeps presenting such interesting ideas and world building only to focus on what's really important: the rise and fall of a flawed leader.
What I wouldn't do to hear more about sandworms, oracles, atomic weapons, and space trade... at least these interesting topics are given a spark rather than avoided altogether. I think this series most reminds me of Star Wars prequels where the story really shines if you are interested in a political intrigue and conspiracy, but if you're looking for wild fantasy you'll be taking scraps.
The last third of the book was really engaging and I managed to finish that in an evening. I was genuinely surprised by how Hayt's story concluded and excited with the final confrontation scene.
What I wouldn't do to hear more about sandworms, oracles, atomic weapons, and space trade... at least these interesting topics are given a spark rather than avoided altogether. I think this series most reminds me of Star Wars prequels where the story really shines if you are interested in a political intrigue and conspiracy, but if you're looking for wild fantasy you'll be taking scraps.
The last third of the book was really engaging and I managed to finish that in an evening. I was genuinely surprised by how Hayt's story concluded and excited with the final confrontation scene.
Content Warnings
Moderate: War
Minor: Incest
mysterious
reflective
medium-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
Character
Strong character development:
Yes
Loveable characters:
Complicated
Diverse cast of characters:
Yes
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Complicated
Content Warnings
Graphic: Infertility, Pregnancy, Colonisation, War
Moderate: Adult/minor relationship, Incest, Religious bigotry
Minor: Addiction, Child death, Death, Torture
adventurous
challenging
dark
mysterious
reflective
sad
tense
medium-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
A mix
Strong character development:
Yes
Loveable characters:
Complicated
Diverse cast of characters:
Yes
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
Visiškai kitokia nei pirmoji knyga, bet tuo pačiu ir nesiskirianti - tiesiog epinius nuotykius ir mūšius keičia gilūs ir sukti politiniai žaidimai bei vidinės personažų kovos su pačiais savimi (ir tas pasireiškia vos ne kiekvienam iš pagrindinių personažų). Pradžioj skaitėsi sunkiai ir lėtai, daug naujų vardų ir terminų, bet gana greitai viskas susistato į vietas.
Gal ta pirmoji knygos pusė ir kiek gali išvarginti savo politiniais dialogais, bet antroji pusė savo tempu per daug nesiskiria nuo pirmosios knygos, o visos filosofinės įžvalgos padeda kiek kitaip pažvelgti į personažus. Vienintelis didesnis minusas - moteriški personažai, kurių paskirtis beveik visada buvo arba pratęsti imperatoriaus giminę, arba pamesti protą dėl vyro (ir nuogai brolio akivaizdoj treniruotis kardu - ką??). Bet net ir su šituo knyga labai stipri ir puikiai pratęsia Kopos istoriją - o skaičius pirmąją knygą šią paskaityti tiesiog būtina.
Gal ta pirmoji knygos pusė ir kiek gali išvarginti savo politiniais dialogais, bet antroji pusė savo tempu per daug nesiskiria nuo pirmosios knygos, o visos filosofinės įžvalgos padeda kiek kitaip pažvelgti į personažus. Vienintelis didesnis minusas - moteriški personažai, kurių paskirtis beveik visada buvo arba pratęsti imperatoriaus giminę, arba pamesti protą dėl vyro (ir nuogai brolio akivaizdoj treniruotis kardu - ką??). Bet net ir su šituo knyga labai stipri ir puikiai pratęsia Kopos istoriją - o skaičius pirmąją knygą šią paskaityti tiesiog būtina.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Death, Violence, War
Moderate: Adult/minor relationship, Injury/Injury detail
Minor: Incest, Infertility
adventurous
challenging
dark
mysterious
reflective
medium-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
A mix
Strong character development:
Yes
Loveable characters:
Yes
Diverse cast of characters:
Yes
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
This was an absolutely underrated book. It is very politics-heavy, therefore can be hard to follow, but if you allow yourself to focus on the story as well as read between the lines, this book is fantastic. Dune and Dune Messiah are a fantastic pair, and I look forward to reading the rest of the series.
Content Warnings
Graphic: War
Moderate: Death
Minor: Child death, Incest
The incest is only theorized, never explored. The main plot surrounds a war, but is not too descriptive about each battle, it’s just mentioned quite often.
adventurous
challenging
emotional
mysterious
reflective
slow-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
Character
Strong character development:
Yes
Loveable characters:
Yes
Diverse cast of characters:
Yes
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
Content Warnings
Minor: Genocide, Incest, War
challenging
dark
tense
medium-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
A mix
Strong character development:
Yes
Loveable characters:
Complicated
Diverse cast of characters:
Complicated
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
Content Warnings
Graphic: Violence, War
Moderate: Adult/minor relationship, Pregnancy, Injury/Injury detail
Minor: Incest
adventurous
challenging
inspiring
reflective
slow-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
A mix
Strong character development:
No
Loveable characters:
No
Diverse cast of characters:
Complicated
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
The second installment of the Dune series managed to be more confusing to read than the first. Perhaps that is due to the more recent movie being available by the time I decided to have a crack at the first volume, in which many of my questions regarding concepts of the story were explained. Dune Messiah carries over the philosophical questionings of power and destiny, but within an overachieving arc of oracles, people being brought back from the dead and only in the last pages of the book you can understand they are in fact, those people, visions from a blind Paul, and more . I appreciate Herbert's musings, and I think I have gained more respect for his ideas, but I can't condone such a difficult writing for the subject of science fiction. And not that this genre shouldn't be subjected to a serious tone, as sci-fi has allowed humanity to explore the limits of infinite possibilities, but having to decipher your own plot through cues at the beginning of each chapter is perhaps a hint that your readers need all the help they can get. And in the spirit of learning, if an entire class fails to understand the assignment, the blame shouldn't be deposited at the student's feet, but rather at their teacher's.
In the end, I think the overall desert aesthetic of the first book was more enjoyable, rich with ecological understandings, but the second one lost me a bit with all the talks of politics and an Emperor afflicted with the immutable position of his role.And honestly the weird vibes of having Alia 'remember' having sex with her father (as her mother), and the mere indication of the possibility of Paul and Alia having a baby together to lock in their genes was enough for me to lose some of my interest. The fact that Herbert considered essential for a young woman to be 'mated' just because she started to feel her young woman body was also offputting text . On and all, Dune Messiah was an interesting sequence to Dune, but all the meanderings and confusions from the writting have me almost firmly decided in not reading the rest of the series.
In the end, I think the overall desert aesthetic of the first book was more enjoyable, rich with ecological understandings, but the second one lost me a bit with all the talks of politics and an Emperor afflicted with the immutable position of his role.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Addiction
Moderate: Genocide, Incest, Religious bigotry