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danilanglie's review against another edition
3.75
It's so cool to read this and see so many sci-fi ideas that are developed in later books/stories I've also greatly enjoyed. I kept thinking of Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, that idea of a computer language used as an infiltrating weapon...
This was a weird novel that kept resisting my expectations about how the plot would develop, but I was totally gripped all the way through. In terms of prose, it's written so beautifully, and really feels like a golden example of science fiction literature from the 60s/70s. It feels like it fits right in alongside one of my all-time favorite novels The Left Hand of Darkness in terms of style and the big ideas being explored.
There's always this strange and interesting thing when reading sci-fi written decades ago, where their imagined futures in some ways feel outdated due to the time of the writing. I love that this book explores polyamory as a healthy and viable option for some people, but also the book imagines that in this future, such relationships are very much marginalized and called "perverted," which we would of course hope would be less the case in the far future.
My favorite scene was maybe Rydra and the Butcher's conversation about the words "you" and "I" and how they are misapplied and then gradually understood, and the way that without such a concept of identity/personhood, so many other things become impossible to explain and comprehend. That really made me think!
This was a weird novel that kept resisting my expectations about how the plot would develop, but I was totally gripped all the way through. In terms of prose, it's written so beautifully, and really feels like a golden example of science fiction literature from the 60s/70s. It feels like it fits right in alongside one of my all-time favorite novels The Left Hand of Darkness in terms of style and the big ideas being explored.
There's always this strange and interesting thing when reading sci-fi written decades ago, where their imagined futures in some ways feel outdated due to the time of the writing. I love that this book explores polyamory as a healthy and viable option for some people, but also the book imagines that in this future, such relationships are very much marginalized and called "perverted," which we would of course hope would be less the case in the far future.
My favorite scene was maybe Rydra and the Butcher's conversation about the words "you" and "I" and how they are misapplied and then gradually understood, and the way that without such a concept of identity/personhood, so many other things become impossible to explain and comprehend. That really made me think!
broomgrass's review against another edition
challenging
dark
fast-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Plot
- Strong character development? No
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? No
4.0
Adventure! but still with more emotional resonance than typical SF fare, especially of that time period. The most compelling moments for me was when Rydra would help someone out with a problem - I'm thinking in particular of how she helps Ron figure out the triple's dynamic.
The genetic and aesthetic modifications are hilariously over the top, there's a character called "The Butcher," they're fighting in a space war, and the book uses the out-of-date but still fascinating concept of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis of language shaping thought as a central conceit. It's certainly dated in some ways - references to Oriental good looks, fatphobia, etc, and often used in rather shallow ways - but overall, a great book.
My one regret is reading a digital copy, since I missed how the representation of the Babel-17 and Rydra's thinking parallel in the language is rendered on the page. I highly recommend finding an old paperback if possible!
The genetic and aesthetic modifications are hilariously over the top, there's a character called "The Butcher," they're fighting in a space war, and the book uses the out-of-date but still fascinating concept of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis of language shaping thought as a central conceit. It's certainly dated in some ways - references to Oriental good looks, fatphobia, etc, and often used in rather shallow ways - but overall, a great book.
My one regret is reading a digital copy, since I missed how the representation of the Babel-17 and Rydra's thinking parallel in the language is rendered on the page. I highly recommend finding an old paperback if possible!
perfectlyrose's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
informative
mysterious
medium-paced
5.0
baldwig's review against another edition
challenging
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? No
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? It's complicated
3.0
Babel-17 by Samuel R. Delany 1965 SF Masterworks #6 3 Read well by Jack Fox
What did I just read?
• ""You mean we've just been trying to decipher a lot of nonsense?" "It's not a code," (Rydra Wong) repeated. "It's a language." The General (Forester) frowned."
• ""The voice of your age," said (Dr. Markus) T'mwarba."
Rydra Wong "nodded. "Mocky, up till a year ago, I didn't even realize I was just saying other people's ideas. I thought they were my own."
"Every young writer who's worth anything goes through that. That's when you learn your craft.""
• Rydra Wong, "In the beginning was the word. That's how somebody tried to explain it once. Until something is named, it doesn't exist."
• "If you have the right words," she said, "it saves a lot of time and makes things easier."
After a while he asked, "What is I?"
She grinned. "First of all it's very important. A good deal more important than anything else. The brain will let any number of things go to pot as long as 'I' stay alive. That's because the brain is part of I. A book is, a ship is, Jebel is, the universe is, but, as you must have noticed, I am."
The Butcher nodded. "Yes. But I am what?"
Quoted by Jarrod:
Rydra, ""Butcher, there are certain ideas which have words for them. If you don't know the words, can't know the ideas and if you don't have the idea, you don't have the answer.""
What did I just read?
• ""The voice of your age," said (Dr. Markus) T'mwarba."
Rydra Wong "nodded. "Mocky, up till a year ago, I didn't even realize I was just saying other people's ideas. I thought they were my own."
"Every young writer who's worth anything goes through that. That's when you learn your craft.""
• Rydra Wong, "In the beginning was the word. That's how somebody tried to explain it once. Until something is named, it doesn't exist."
• "If you have the right words," she said, "it saves a lot of time and makes things easier."
After a while he asked, "What is I?"
She grinned. "First of all it's very important. A good deal more important than anything else. The brain will let any number of things go to pot as long as 'I' stay alive. That's because the brain is part of I. A book is, a ship is, Jebel is, the universe is, but, as you must have noticed, I am."
The Butcher nodded. "Yes. But I am what?"
Quoted by Jarrod:
Rydra, ""Butcher, there are certain ideas which have words for them. If you don't know the words, can't know the ideas and if you don't have the idea, you don't have the answer.""
alexeball's review against another edition
adventurous
lighthearted
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? No
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? No
2.5
steveatwaywords's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
informative
mysterious
tense
- Plot- or character-driven? Plot
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.5
Surprisingly fast-paced novel on language and how it shapes our thinking!
Delany is at once a sharp-skilled writer on topics abstract and challenging (how a brain functions, social-psychological insights, what it means to be 'discorporate') and sometimes challenging on topics which might be sharply-defined (action sequences with unspoken narrative leaps, dialogue with subtext too subtle to follow). Nevertheless, what I thought first upon reading this book (and after it was over) was that I wanted more.
His characters, major and minor, are rich in backstory without needless exposition; the world is massive in variation and function with little space given for its history. From the first pages, readers are set deeply into it and left to founder, but we are never lose ourselves from the tautly-told story offered. At once a novel of espionage and murder, its answer is cleanly resolved in the premise: how might a language's structure alter who and what we are?
A reader today may have quibbles with the book: its worlds lean a bit heavily on the 1960s psychedelic scenes from when it was written. And, my personal trouble at times, the narrative dives into the languages themselves are fairly experimental and at times stream-of-consciousness, in keeping with the nature of those languages. However, these pages (not mere paragraphs) can become truly disorienting: but don't skip over them, because much of Delany's answers and vision lie in this very experimental text! (And to be sure, when I say that I wanted the novel to be longer, it was not to ask for more of this writing!)
What we are left with is a novel that pokes hard at a concept other writers have done far less successfully (Ayn Rand and Larry Niven each come to mind), but with stakes and consequences so high that we leave less worried for the future vision and more anxious for ourselves.
Delany is at once a sharp-skilled writer on topics abstract and challenging (how a brain functions, social-psychological insights, what it means to be 'discorporate') and sometimes challenging on topics which might be sharply-defined (action sequences with unspoken narrative leaps, dialogue with subtext too subtle to follow). Nevertheless, what I thought first upon reading this book (and after it was over) was that I wanted more.
His characters, major and minor, are rich in backstory without needless exposition; the world is massive in variation and function with little space given for its history. From the first pages, readers are set deeply into it and left to founder, but we are never lose ourselves from the tautly-told story offered. At once a novel of espionage and murder, its answer is cleanly resolved in the premise: how might a language's structure alter who and what we are?
A reader today may have quibbles with the book: its worlds lean a bit heavily on the 1960s psychedelic scenes from when it was written. And, my personal trouble at times, the narrative dives into the languages themselves are fairly experimental and at times stream-of-consciousness, in keeping with the nature of those languages. However, these pages (not mere paragraphs) can become truly disorienting: but don't skip over them, because much of Delany's answers and vision lie in this very experimental text! (And to be sure, when I say that I wanted the novel to be longer, it was not to ask for more of this writing!)
What we are left with is a novel that pokes hard at a concept other writers have done far less successfully (Ayn Rand and Larry Niven each come to mind), but with stakes and consequences so high that we leave less worried for the future vision and more anxious for ourselves.
Content Warnings
Graphic: War and Violence
Moderate: Sexual content and Drug use
The violence and war are high space action rather than realistic history.clacksee's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
reflective
slow-paced
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? No
I’ve read this before. But I feel like I read a completely different book. Also, I’ve no idea what I just read.
11corvus11's review against another edition
5.0
The fact that this was written in 1966 is mind blowing.
wookieeatemyshoe's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
reflective
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
2.0