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gilroi's review against another edition
informative
mysterious
reflective
relaxing
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Plot
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? It's complicated
4.0
caoimhie's review against another edition
1.0
This book was a major disappointment. While I think it can be interesting knowing more than the characters ,if done well, in this case when met with the question of whether or not the just city would work, anyone with sense I think knew the answer was 'no', and the writer didn't have the skill to pull off making this feel like a tragic inevitability.
The concept of taking figures from different time periods and with different worldvies and trapping them in a city where they have to philosophise non-stop could be really something spectacular, but instead the only friction and exploration of how these different people would interact is the occasional reminder that Cicero is a misogynist.
The writing itself was at times painful to get through, and the multiple pov chapter's felt pointless because each voice sounded the same, which is something given one of the pov's is a literal god.
The pacing of the story felt messy and uneven, and at one point, 200 pages in, we get a chapter where the god apollo explains some incredibly basic platonic concepts to himself, despite knowing them already and I had to put the book down.
The only compelling characters were Kebes and Sokrates, but Kebes in particular is treated as little more than a nuisance by most of the characters.
I'm not going to get into the treatment of sexual assault and eugenics in the book but needless to say its bad.
(also treating Plato like a feminist (?) without there being any serious discussion of his views on gender and also the statement that Constantinople was only good for preserving the classical world are some of the worst takes I've seen ever)
The concept of taking figures from different time periods and with different worldvies and trapping them in a city where they have to philosophise non-stop could be really something spectacular, but instead the only friction and exploration of how these different people would interact is the occasional reminder that Cicero is a misogynist.
The writing itself was at times painful to get through, and the multiple pov chapter's felt pointless because each voice sounded the same, which is something given one of the pov's is a literal god.
The pacing of the story felt messy and uneven, and at one point, 200 pages in, we get a chapter where the god apollo explains some incredibly basic platonic concepts to himself, despite knowing them already and I had to put the book down.
The only compelling characters were Kebes and Sokrates, but Kebes in particular is treated as little more than a nuisance by most of the characters.
I'm not going to get into the treatment of sexual assault and eugenics in the book but needless to say its bad.
(also treating Plato like a feminist (?) without there being any serious discussion of his views on gender and also the statement that Constantinople was only good for preserving the classical world are some of the worst takes I've seen ever)
yuck1209's review against another edition
challenging
mysterious
reflective
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.75
I’ve read Walton’s Lent before so this feels somewhat similar thematically and even has earlier iterations of the same historical figures she’s played with (e.g., Ficino, Mirandola, Pico). While it definitely made me think, I’m still not entirely sure what I was supposed to get out of it.
Obviously for the reader there are clear and early signs that the Just City experiment is less than perfect from the get-go (e.g., the selection of the masters, the rationalization of buying child slaves). This only reinforced by events throughout the novel, such asKebes’ unflagging resistance to the masters and refusal to ignore that he was brought to the City against his will; Maia’s rape at the hands of Ikaros despite clear and repeatedly refusal; the “children’s” furtive defiance against rules around marriage and sex; and of course the reveal that the workers are, in fact, sentient beings capable of volition and reason .
It’s also very obvious that the City is subject to the prejudices and very harmful beliefs of its older masters, particularly as it relates to gender and slavery. The interesting sticking point with the masters is the reverence with which they treat famous philosophers and thinkers, despite their insistence on forgetting their original lives and times (or was that just for the children? There are a lot of double standards between masters and children). All of this goes to show what a precarious setup the Just City truly is, particularly as the children age and become much more capable of questioning the way things are.
In that sense, Sokrates’ examination of trust cut to the heart of the premise. So much of society functions only because we have trust in the citizens around us, the rules we choose to follow, the authorities that enforce said rules, and so on. When Sokrates finally gets the opportunity to debate Athene on the topic, it ends almost abruptlywith her spitefully transforming him into a gadfly . Well-reasoned.
Obviously for the reader there are clear and early signs that the Just City experiment is less than perfect from the get-go (e.g., the selection of the masters, the rationalization of buying child slaves). This only reinforced by events throughout the novel, such as
It’s also very obvious that the City is subject to the prejudices and very harmful beliefs of its older masters, particularly as it relates to gender and slavery. The interesting sticking point with the masters is the reverence with which they treat famous philosophers and thinkers, despite their insistence on forgetting their original lives and times (or was that just for the children? There are a lot of double standards between masters and children). All of this goes to show what a precarious setup the Just City truly is, particularly as the children age and become much more capable of questioning the way things are.
In that sense, Sokrates’ examination of trust cut to the heart of the premise. So much of society functions only because we have trust in the citizens around us, the rules we choose to follow, the authorities that enforce said rules, and so on. When Sokrates finally gets the opportunity to debate Athene on the topic, it ends almost abruptly
lsparrow's review against another edition
4.0
The concept of this book combines fantasy, sci fi, philosophy with greek mythology and politics. Greek mythology is not always my favorite but I found myself pulled into the story. The questions about freedom, power, identity and government are ones that we continue to grapple with. I found the ending the weakest part of the book for me. But perhaps it being part of a series explains it.
taylormsinclair's review against another edition
challenging
hopeful
reflective
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.0
karinlib's review against another edition
4.0
Can you imagine living in a city that Plato thought would be a Just City if it could be done? Apparently the Goddess Athena thought she could bring all the elements together to make it work. She brought together the best people who prayed to her.
What I liked about the book are the topics that were discussed: gender roles; bringing up children to be the best they can be; freedom and free will, choice, and AI
I won't say much more, because I really enjoyed the fact that I didn't know anything about the book before reading it (I have only read parts of Plato's Republic, so I am not an expert).
I am looking forward to the next book in the trilogy.
What I liked about the book are the topics that were discussed: gender roles; bringing up children to be the best they can be; freedom and free will, choice, and AI
I won't say much more, because I really enjoyed the fact that I didn't know anything about the book before reading it (I have only read parts of Plato's Republic, so I am not an expert).
I am looking forward to the next book in the trilogy.
amlibera's review against another edition
4.0
I'm always slow to start a Jo Walton book and then deeply glad I read it. This book is a lot of things - a thought experiment, the first part of a fantasy trilogy, an exploration of philosophy and the desire to be good. It's maybe not equally good at fulfilling all of what it is but that doesn't make it any less worth reading.
binsky's review against another edition
- Strong character development? No
2.0
This book could have been so much better…
thestoryowl's review against another edition
4.0
A lot of the book felt like a mental exercise, but it was good and I liked it. There were a couple times where I had to flip back to the beginning of a chapter to see who was narrating, which means the character voices weren't as distinct as maybe they could have been (I would have enjoyed a chapter told by Krebes)