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3.59 AVERAGE
3.59 AVERAGE
I can see what people like this book... but it's not even that good. It has some interesting things that I've never seen in another book, and there are certainly some interesting characters/decent writing.
But I gave up. It just gets worse and worse, and there isn't really much merit. I listened to more than half, but I don't think I will finish.
But I gave up. It just gets worse and worse, and there isn't really much merit. I listened to more than half, but I don't think I will finish.
i’ve tried twice to listen to this book because I am so intrigued by the concept but I just don’t care about these characters and you don’t get enough about Martian culture or the man from Mars. at least not in the first third of the book.
Poeh, zo’n boek dat als klassieker bekend staat, maar een taaie klus was om uit te lezen. Allereerst moet je je voortdurend bewust zijn van de tijd waarin het geschreven is. Begin jaren ‘60, pre maanlanding, met een voet in de jaren ‘50 qua maatschappij en omgangsvormen. Geen internet, wel ‘stereo tanks’ (3D tv’s?) en vliegende taxi’s. Met dat in gedachte zijn alle bespiegelingen over religie, sexualiteit, maatschappij, macht origineel en grensverleggend. Maar de karaktersbeschrijvingen en met name de man-vrouw relaties zijn niet door te komen met een tenenkrommende manier om naar vrouwen te kijken - het is voortdurend mensplaining, met de vrouwen ogenschijnlijk in mondige, sterke karakters, maar ze moeten wel tijdig hun mond houden. Vooral Harshaw, naast Mike de hoofdpersoon, als centrale personage maakte het moeilijk om door te komen. De oude excentrieke alleswetende en allesoverzienende wijze, omringd door een dienstbare set jonge vrouwen. Brrr.
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/127322063
Is een scherpe één ster recensie waar ik ook goed in kan vinden. Dus die drie sterren zijn nog enigszins geflatteerd ;-)
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/127322063
Is een scherpe één ster recensie waar ik ook goed in kan vinden. Dus die drie sterren zijn nog enigszins geflatteerd ;-)
mysterious
slow-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
Character
Strong character development:
Yes
Loveable characters:
Complicated
Diverse cast of characters:
No
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
challenging
medium-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
Character
Strong character development:
Yes
Loveable characters:
Complicated
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
Where to start? There is so much more to this novel than I expected going in to it - and I expected a lot given its renown, though I did not know what form it would take.
The first two parts, "His Maculate Origin" and "His Preposterous Heritage" which take us through about 226 pages, I found the most interesting section of the book. The dichotomy between Valentine Michael Smith's otherworldly innocence and Jubal Harshaw's worldly insightfulness (not to mention his tendency to be a crotchety old man) is rich and enjoyable. And considering I don't usually enjoy things of a political nature, Jubal's frank way of voicing his opinions and observations and even his sleight-of-voice actions in regards to Douglas and the government made for an intriguing and enjoyable read.
Jubal's observations (as well as the observations of other) throughout the book run the gambit from being stuck in seeing the world from the 1960s viewpoint to being a cynical old man all the way to being as open-minded and forward-thinking - yet staying true to life - as science fiction is possible to be.
"Remind me," Jubal told [Anne], "to write an article on the compulsive reading of the news. The theme will be that most neuroses can be traced to the unhealthy habit of wallowing in the troubles of five billion strangers. Title is 'Gossip Unlimited'-- no, make that 'Gossip Gone Wild.'" -- page 98 -- Just one of the many instances, I think, when Jubal makes one of those observations that point out the simple truth, and are quite utterly undeniable. I'd love to hear what that article would say.
"Do-gooding is like treating hemophilia-- the real cure is to let hemophiliacs bleed to death... before they breed more hemophiliacs." -- page 184 -- So if I understand Jubal correctly, he's basically saying that if do-gooders didn't do do-gooding, then the people who take the opportunity to take advantage of them would stop having taking advantage of them and the rest of society? Is that it?
[Jubal and Doctor Mahmoud are talking about Arabic and languages. Doctor Mahmoud said,] "English is the largest human tongue; its variety, subtlety, and irrational idiomatic complexity make it possible to say things in English which cannot be said in any other language. It almost drove me crazy... until I learned to think in it--and that put a new 'map' of the world on top of the one I grew up with. A better one, perhaps--certainly a more detailed one.
"But there are certain things which can be said in Arabic that cannot be said in English." -- page 212-13 -- A little English-speaking-centric perhaps, but it is not wrong, and in fact makes a very good point. All languages use different maps of the world, and each language map has its own gaps. But overlap a few language maps, and you have so many more ways to say what you think, and if one language doesn't cover what you want, maybe another one does instead.
As for what should by this time be an antiquated way of thought: "But I was coping with wolves when you were still on Mars. Nine times out of ten, if a girl gets raped, it's partly her fault[," Jill explained.] -- page 304 -- While this view is also a sign of the times the novel was written in, what makes me upset about this - other than that it is said by a female character - is that it is still an all-too-common (horribly incorrect) view today. This view has perpetuated since at least the 1960s, and to this day, 50-plus years later, we are still dealing with this misconception. The fault of rape is NEVER on the victim. It rests solely on the perpetrator, and all the guilt should fall on the perpetrator.
The first half or so of "His Eccentric Education" - pages 229-266 - I found mildly uncomfortable. The Fosterite method of worship was strange, to say the least, and Mike's conclusions from that experience and from his conversations with Jubal, Mahmoud, and Digby I found, while not hard to swallow, at least somewhat distasteful. The rest of it was more uncomfortable, and Mike's decision at the end of it took me by surprise.
[Jubal said,] "Thank you. 'Artist' is a word I avoid for the same reason I hate to be called 'Doctor.' But I am an artist. Most of my stuff is worth reading only once ... and not even once by a person who knows the little I have to say. But I am an honest artist. What I write is intended to reach the customer -- and affect him, if possible with pity and terror...or at least divert the tedium of his hours. I never hide from him in a private language, nor am I seeking praise from other writers for 'technique' or other balderdash. I want praise from the customer, given in cash because I've reached him--or I don't want anything. Support for the arts--merde! A government-supported artist is an incompetent whore!" -- page 326 -- Another instance where I think what Jubal says holds quite a bit of truth in it not only in the 1960s, but through today as well.
"So far as I recall only pre-civilization Eskimos were this naive [as Mike]-- and they were so isolated that they were almost 'Men from Mars' themselves. But we gave them our 'virtues' and now they have chastity and adultery just like the rest of us. Ben, what did they gain?" [Jubal said.]
"I wouldn't care to be an Eskimo."
"Nor I. Spoiled fish makes me bilious." -- page 366 -- This is something that we have seen happen time and time again, over the course of history. A new group of people arrives in an already-populated area, and proceeds to teach the natives how they are living life wrong and should do it this way instead.
As for "His Scandalous Career" -- I had a difficult time swallowing this section too, but not because it was not convincing. Ben was just the right person to go see what was up with Mike and Jill and their group, and Jubal was just the right person to whom Ben should tell what he witnessed/experienced. What made it hard to swallow was what actually was going on in the lives of Mike and Jill, and what they were seeking and succeeding in doing together.
But if not for "His Scandalous Career", then I never would have been able to get even close to grokking "His Happy Destiny". Things that had been set up and mentioned throughout the rest of the novel came to fruition in this last section. Though this second half of the novel in sum was a little too religiously-bent for preference, I still enjoyed the read, especially when we got Jubal putting his two-cents in again. I really enjoy Jubal's way of explaining the world, and his views of the world, and how Mike looks up to him so much like a Father. It makes me wonder if Jubal is Heinlein talking to us as much as Jubal is talking to Mike/Ben/whoever he's talking to at the moment.
The first two parts, "His Maculate Origin" and "His Preposterous Heritage" which take us through about 226 pages, I found the most interesting section of the book. The dichotomy between Valentine Michael Smith's otherworldly innocence and Jubal Harshaw's worldly insightfulness (not to mention his tendency to be a crotchety old man) is rich and enjoyable. And considering I don't usually enjoy things of a political nature, Jubal's frank way of voicing his opinions and observations and even his sleight-of-voice actions in regards to Douglas and the government made for an intriguing and enjoyable read.
Jubal's observations (as well as the observations of other) throughout the book run the gambit from being stuck in seeing the world from the 1960s viewpoint to being a cynical old man all the way to being as open-minded and forward-thinking - yet staying true to life - as science fiction is possible to be.
"Remind me," Jubal told [Anne], "to write an article on the compulsive reading of the news. The theme will be that most neuroses can be traced to the unhealthy habit of wallowing in the troubles of five billion strangers. Title is 'Gossip Unlimited'-- no, make that 'Gossip Gone Wild.'" -- page 98 -- Just one of the many instances, I think, when Jubal makes one of those observations that point out the simple truth, and are quite utterly undeniable. I'd love to hear what that article would say.
"Do-gooding is like treating hemophilia-- the real cure is to let hemophiliacs bleed to death... before they breed more hemophiliacs." -- page 184 -- So if I understand Jubal correctly, he's basically saying that if do-gooders didn't do do-gooding, then the people who take the opportunity to take advantage of them would stop having taking advantage of them and the rest of society? Is that it?
[Jubal and Doctor Mahmoud are talking about Arabic and languages. Doctor Mahmoud said,] "English is the largest human tongue; its variety, subtlety, and irrational idiomatic complexity make it possible to say things in English which cannot be said in any other language. It almost drove me crazy... until I learned to think in it--and that put a new 'map' of the world on top of the one I grew up with. A better one, perhaps--certainly a more detailed one.
"But there are certain things which can be said in Arabic that cannot be said in English." -- page 212-13 -- A little English-speaking-centric perhaps, but it is not wrong, and in fact makes a very good point. All languages use different maps of the world, and each language map has its own gaps. But overlap a few language maps, and you have so many more ways to say what you think, and if one language doesn't cover what you want, maybe another one does instead.
As for what should by this time be an antiquated way of thought: "But I was coping with wolves when you were still on Mars. Nine times out of ten, if a girl gets raped, it's partly her fault[," Jill explained.] -- page 304 -- While this view is also a sign of the times the novel was written in, what makes me upset about this - other than that it is said by a female character - is that it is still an all-too-common (horribly incorrect) view today. This view has perpetuated since at least the 1960s, and to this day, 50-plus years later, we are still dealing with this misconception. The fault of rape is NEVER on the victim. It rests solely on the perpetrator, and all the guilt should fall on the perpetrator.
The first half or so of "His Eccentric Education" - pages 229-266 - I found mildly uncomfortable. The Fosterite method of worship was strange, to say the least, and Mike's conclusions from that experience and from his conversations with Jubal, Mahmoud, and Digby I found, while not hard to swallow, at least somewhat distasteful. The rest of it was more uncomfortable, and Mike's decision at the end of it took me by surprise.
Spoiler
Though I am a bit of a fan of his deduction/opinion that "that prime fact which doesn't depend on faith may mean that all faiths are true."[Jubal said,] "Thank you. 'Artist' is a word I avoid for the same reason I hate to be called 'Doctor.' But I am an artist. Most of my stuff is worth reading only once ... and not even once by a person who knows the little I have to say. But I am an honest artist. What I write is intended to reach the customer -- and affect him, if possible with pity and terror...or at least divert the tedium of his hours. I never hide from him in a private language, nor am I seeking praise from other writers for 'technique' or other balderdash. I want praise from the customer, given in cash because I've reached him--or I don't want anything. Support for the arts--merde! A government-supported artist is an incompetent whore!" -- page 326 -- Another instance where I think what Jubal says holds quite a bit of truth in it not only in the 1960s, but through today as well.
"So far as I recall only pre-civilization Eskimos were this naive [as Mike]-- and they were so isolated that they were almost 'Men from Mars' themselves. But we gave them our 'virtues' and now they have chastity and adultery just like the rest of us. Ben, what did they gain?" [Jubal said.]
"I wouldn't care to be an Eskimo."
"Nor I. Spoiled fish makes me bilious." -- page 366 -- This is something that we have seen happen time and time again, over the course of history. A new group of people arrives in an already-populated area, and proceeds to teach the natives how they are living life wrong and should do it this way instead.
As for "His Scandalous Career" -- I had a difficult time swallowing this section too, but not because it was not convincing. Ben was just the right person to go see what was up with Mike and Jill and their group, and Jubal was just the right person to whom Ben should tell what he witnessed/experienced. What made it hard to swallow was what actually was going on in the lives of Mike and Jill, and what they were seeking and succeeding in doing together.
But if not for "His Scandalous Career", then I never would have been able to get even close to grokking "His Happy Destiny". Things that had been set up and mentioned throughout the rest of the novel came to fruition in this last section. Though this second half of the novel in sum was a little too religiously-bent for preference, I still enjoyed the read, especially when we got Jubal putting his two-cents in again. I really enjoy Jubal's way of explaining the world, and his views of the world, and how Mike looks up to him so much like a Father. It makes me wonder if Jubal is Heinlein talking to us as much as Jubal is talking to Mike/Ben/whoever he's talking to at the moment.
Spoiler
I was slightly perturbed that after Archangel Foster wished that the cup pass from Patty and go to someone else - but "then chided himself for such unprofessional, almost human, thought. Mercy was not possible in an angel; angelic compassion left no room for it." -- page 373 - and in the end, it seems as though he went ahead and went along with his unprofessional thought. Way to give the reader the slip, Mr. Heinlein -- the kind of slip we don't like. But then I suppose that if he hadn't given us that slip and substituted who he did, then it would have been much harder to find a good ending point for this story. I also found it awkward how Jubal seemed to be getting on the bandwagon Mike had started rolling, but at least he did it in his crotchety-old-man-Jubal way. Jubal seemed to lose the least of his character when he joined the Nest in full as compared to Ben, Jill, Miriam, Dorcas, Duke, and pretty much everyone else.
funny
lighthearted
medium-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
Character
Strong character development:
Yes
Loveable characters:
Yes
Diverse cast of characters:
Yes
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
slow-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
A mix
Strong character development:
Complicated
Loveable characters:
No
Diverse cast of characters:
No
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
Boring as hell and I got tired of the misogyny. Also, wow the while line of "Lynch him! Give the bastard a n----- necktie!" Didn't see that line coming, jezus. I know this book is considered one of the good old "must reads"... but just skip it.