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gh7's review
2.0
Big fan of David Peace but I think, stylistically, he’s now beginning to write himself into a cul-de-sac. It’s been argued that his repetitive incantatory prose style suits the groundhog day nature of football, its dependence on statistics and religious fervour, and perhaps if I had not read any of his other novels I might have admired this more, but for me Peace’s prose in this novel was lacking its usual depth charges poetry. The day Bill Shankly finally accepts retirement is brilliant. We get him washing his car in real time. Every mundane obsessive action described in all its bald poverty which poignantly evokes the bleak denouement of retirement but these moments are few and far between. The carbon copy text of the pre-season training rituals means you just end up skipping the copy and pasted passages that come up before every new season. And this was the case for many of the obsessively repeated paragraphs. In his earlier novels his choice of what motifs to repeat was inspired. In this novel it seems lazy and often gratuitous.
I reckon he’s now exhausted this style. His next novel will either be a masterpiece or a kind of pastiche of his former self.
I reckon he’s now exhausted this style. His next novel will either be a masterpiece or a kind of pastiche of his former self.
capellan's review
1.0
An interesting tale could be told about how Bill Shankly managed Liverpool from being a mediocre 2nd Division side to the best side in England. An interesting tale could be told about what Bill did with his life afterward. An interesting tale does not appear in these pages, as David Peace delivers a recursive, repetitive work that's like reading a transcription of "1000 Bottles of Beer on the Wall". It's clearly a deliberate structural choice, but it's a baffling one that turns the book into an arduous slog.
peel_acres's review
3.0
Bill Shankly is a fascinating subject and as a Liverpool FC fan I was eager to devour this book.
I've read all of David Peace's book before and loved them. I was aware of the idiosyncratic writing style in this work but I thought my love of Peace's work would carry me through.
It did. Just. The story is fascinating but the writing style had me wanting to throw the book at the wall many times. In the end I got into a routine of reading the sections on the seasons and skipping the domestic stuff. When reading the sections on the seasons I got into the habit of scanning the sentences to miss out the repetition.
All in all, I consider this book to be a missed opportunity to tell an interesting story in an engaging way.
I've read all of David Peace's book before and loved them. I was aware of the idiosyncratic writing style in this work but I thought my love of Peace's work would carry me through.
It did. Just. The story is fascinating but the writing style had me wanting to throw the book at the wall many times. In the end I got into a routine of reading the sections on the seasons and skipping the domestic stuff. When reading the sections on the seasons I got into the habit of scanning the sentences to miss out the repetition.
All in all, I consider this book to be a missed opportunity to tell an interesting story in an engaging way.
klobz's review against another edition
1.0
This book is about my favourite subject matter but I couldn't get past the writing style which did my head in. The book could have been half the length it was if it wasn't for the constant repetition style the writer went with.
velocitygirl14's review against another edition
4.0
I read it due to my love of the club (I have the motto tattooed on my arm) and also because I was aware of Bill Shankly, but had no real connection to what he did.
The book, to be honest, reminded me of reading Ulysses in parts. It took me awhile to really get into it and when I did, I was rewarded with sheer brilliance. I can't say I'm so in love with it, because it wasn't an easy one to read, but I love it all the same for the portrait of an era I never lived through, but see the repercussions of.
The book, to be honest, reminded me of reading Ulysses in parts. It took me awhile to really get into it and when I did, I was rewarded with sheer brilliance. I can't say I'm so in love with it, because it wasn't an easy one to read, but I love it all the same for the portrait of an era I never lived through, but see the repercussions of.
zachkuhn's review
3.0
Great Liverpool history. If you're not a fan of Liverpool I'm not sure you could survive the first 25 pages...
arirang's review
3.0
Repetition, Repetition, repetition.
The opening words of David Peace’s 720 page Red or Dead do give the reader fair warning of what to expect.
Red or Dead was shortlisted for the inaugural Goldsmiths Prize in 2013, and, for me, completes the set of the 24 shortlisted novels to date. I have certainly saved the longest till last; and although not the best, it was a far more enjoyable and interesting read than I had feared.
Peace’s better known football novel, [b:The Damned United|29437848|The Damned United|David Peace|https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1457894254s/29437848.jpg|49706093] focused on Brian Clough’s ill-fated and brief reign at Leeds. Red or Dead takes as it’s subject another legendary manager, Bill Shankly at Liverpool. The timescale is much longer – Shankly managed the club for almost 15 years rather than 44 days and somewhat more lightly fictionalised. Few of the real-life characters came out of The Damned United well, and indeed the book found its way to the libel courts, whereas this story is much more generous and respectful to almost all concerned.
In this crucial early scene, perhaps my favourite in the book, we are in December 1959, witnessing Shankly’s first visit as manager to his new team’s ground. He and we encounter the famous boot room, a fictional recreation of the real-life event documented in Stephen Kelly’s [b:Bill Shankly: It's Much More Important Than That: The Biography|1754991|Bill Shankly It's Much More Important Than That The Biography|Stephen F. Kelly|https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1347226653s/1754991.jpg|1752847].
Into Liverpool, into Anfield.
In the ground, in the office, Bill shook hands with Jimmy McInnes, the club secretary. Bill knows Jimmy McInnes. Bill knew Jimmy came from Ayr. Bill knew Jimmy had played for Third Lanark and Liverpool Football Club. Jimmy introduced Bill to the receptionist, the ticket administrators, the cleaners and the groundsman, Arthur Riley. Bill knew Arthur Riley. Bill had worked for Liverpool Football Club for over thirty years. Arthur took Bill to meet the coaching staff. Under the stands, down a corridor. Among the boots, the dirty boots -
This is Bob Paisley, said Arthur Riley. Bob is the first-team trainer. This is Joe Fagan. Joe is in charge of the reserves. This is Reuben Bennett. Reuben takes most of the training. And this is Albert Shelley. Albert used to be first-team trainer. He’s supposed to be retired. But Albert still comes in every day. Albert does whatever needs doing. Albert does everything and anything.
Bill nodded. And Bill said, I know Bob. Me and Bob played against each other on many occasions. We had many a good scrap. And I know Joe. I tried to sign Joe when I was at Grimsby and he was at Manchester City. I know Reuben. Reuben used to work with my brother Bob at Dundee. And I know Albert. I know he lives and breathes Liverpool Football Club. I know you all do. And so I know you men are all good men. True football men. But I also know you fellows have been here a long time. And so I know you’ll all be worrying about me coming in. A new feller with new ways. Different ways. Maybe wanting to bring in new trainers with him. His mates. Well, I’m not going to do that. But I do have my ways. My methods and my systems. And they will be different ways. But I am here to work with you. Not against you. I am here to work in cooperation with you as a team. And so gradually I will lay down my plans and then gradually we will all be on the same wavelength. And in return I want one thing. Loyalty, I want loyalty. So I don’t want anyone to carry stories about anyone else. The man who brings the story to me will be the one that gets the sack. I don’t care if he’s been here fifty years. He’ll be the one who goes. Because I want everyone to be loyal to each other. To the team. And to the club. So everything we do will be for Liverpool Football Club. Not for ourselves. Not as individuals. But for the team. For Liverpool Football Club. Total loyalty. That is all I ask. Because that loyalty makes strength. And that strength will bring success. I promise you.
Shankly’s biggest achievement wasn't so much the trophies he won but his legacy. Three league titles, two FA cups and the UEFA cup in 15 seasons, starting from the 2nd division is impressive, but in the same period Busby and Stein won the European Cup (which eluded Shankly), Robson and Clough also took teams from the 2nd division to winning the 1st, Revie built his own formidable team, and Nicholson and Mee won the league/cup Double. Indeed this picture of adoring fans is actually taken after Liverpool had lost the 1971 FA Cup final to Arsenal's double winners.
But none transformed their club in the same way Shankly did, creating a template for sustained success.
That legacy included handing over to the boot-room team: after Shankly retired in July 1974, he was succeeded by Bob Paisley (to July 1983 - winner of 3 European Cups and 6 league titles in 9 years) who was in turn briefly succeeded by Joe Fagan (to May 1985, his last game being the Heysel Stadium disaster).
Key to Shankly’s popularity was his relationship with, and dedication to, the fans, rooted in his socialist beliefs.
At his first Board meeting he complains about the toilets:
The ones the spectators use?
Yes, said Bill Shankly. The ones in the stands. The ones the people who pay to watch Liverpool Football Club have to use. Those people almost my wages. Those people, those toilets.
As discussed at outset, the key to Peace's style in this novel is repetition, the same methodical repetition that was key to Shankly's training method and approach. Almost every game in his time at the club is described in similar style to the following passage, taken from the start of what would prove to be Liverpool's promotion season into division 1:
On Saturday 19 August, 1961, on the first Saturday of the new season, Liverpool Football Club travelled to the Eastville Stadium, Bristol.
And before the whistle, the first whistle of the new season. In the dressing room, the away dressing room. The players of Liverpool Football Club looked up at Bill Shankly. Bill Shankly in the centre of the dressing room, the away dressing room. Bill Shankly looking around the dressing room, the away dressing room. From player to player, Liverpool player to Liverpool player. From Slater to White, White to Byrne, Byrne to Milne, Milne to Yeats, Yeats to Leishman, Leishman to Lewis, Lewis to Hunt, Hunt to St John, St John to Melia, Melia to A'Court. And Bill Shankly rubbed his hands together—
This is it, said Bill Shankly. This is it, boys! Everything we've been doing. Everything we've been working for, boys. It was all for this moment, all for this game. This first game of the season, boys. This season that will be our season. Our season, boys…
In the seventh minute of this first game of this new season, Kevin Lewis scored. And in the fifty-fifth minute, Hills scored an own goal. And Liverpool Football Club beat Bristol Rovers two–nil. Away from home, away from Anfield. In the first game of the new season.
On Wednesday 23 August, 1961, Sunderland Football Club came to Anfield, Liverpool. That night, forty-eight thousand, nine hundred folk came, too. On a Wednesday night, for the first home game of the season. In the forty-eighth minute of the first home game of the season, Roger Hunt scored. In the seventy-eighth minute, Kevin Lewis scored. And in the eighty-third minute, Hunt scored again. And Liverpool Football Club beat Sunderland Football Club three–nil. At home, at Anfield. In the first home game of the season.
The listing of the results, cumulative point totals and team lists also help create a sense of how the season evolved (although little actual drama), and it is fascinating to see how the teams evolved to the ones that became famous, and how he had to rebuild as players aged and opponents tactics evolved.
This need to rebuild and replace was something Shankly was, by necessity, relatively ruthless at pursuing, while compassionate in terms of handling the people concerned (Bob Paisley had a reputation for being even more successfully ruthless, but handling players impacted less well). To Ian St John, when he is dropped, Shankly tells him:
It comes to us all son. And so you have to be prepared. You have to be ready son. Because you have to decide how to deal with it. Will it be with grace and with dignity. Or will it be with anger and bitterness.
And inevitably it comes to Shankly as well, albeit he retired by his own choice.
Nothing but the sound of chains rattling, knives sharpening and spades digging. At your back, in your shadow. Rattling, sharpening, digging. And ticking. The clock ticking.
Bill knew it was always easier to give up. To throw in the towel. And surrender. To the chains, the knives, to the spades. To take your comfort in past glories, to dine out on past victories. To abandon the present to other men, to leave the future to younger men.
The last third of the novel describes Shankly's retirement. The methodical repetition carries over in his retirement to his daily life - or at least's Peace's description of it. The following passage constitutes about 1/15th of a description of him washing his car:
And Bill walked back round to the bucket. Bill crouched down back beside the bucket. Bill put the cloth back into the water in the bucket. Bill soaked the cloth in the water again. Bill wrang out the cloth again. Bill stood back up with the cloth in his hand. Bill walked round to the far side of the car. And Bill washed the windows on the far side of the car. Back and forth, back and forth. Bill washed the windows on the far side. And Bill walked back round to the bucket.
One that gave him some cause for frustration: the Liverpool Board had to discourage him from returning to the training ground, so as to give the new manager a chance to establish himself, and for a period Shankly found himself more welcome in the Boardroom at Goodison or Old Trafford, than at Anfield.
But he was - and still is - adored in the streets and on the terraces.
Ultimately a moving portrayal of a true great. The literary technique used is effective, and the book a more enjoyable read than my review might suggest, albeit lyrical prose this isn't. 3.5 stars and certainly worthy of his Goldsmith's nomination.
The opening words of David Peace’s 720 page Red or Dead do give the reader fair warning of what to expect.
Red or Dead was shortlisted for the inaugural Goldsmiths Prize in 2013, and, for me, completes the set of the 24 shortlisted novels to date. I have certainly saved the longest till last; and although not the best, it was a far more enjoyable and interesting read than I had feared.
Peace’s better known football novel, [b:The Damned United|29437848|The Damned United|David Peace|https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1457894254s/29437848.jpg|49706093] focused on Brian Clough’s ill-fated and brief reign at Leeds. Red or Dead takes as it’s subject another legendary manager, Bill Shankly at Liverpool. The timescale is much longer – Shankly managed the club for almost 15 years rather than 44 days and somewhat more lightly fictionalised. Few of the real-life characters came out of The Damned United well, and indeed the book found its way to the libel courts, whereas this story is much more generous and respectful to almost all concerned.
In this crucial early scene, perhaps my favourite in the book, we are in December 1959, witnessing Shankly’s first visit as manager to his new team’s ground. He and we encounter the famous boot room, a fictional recreation of the real-life event documented in Stephen Kelly’s [b:Bill Shankly: It's Much More Important Than That: The Biography|1754991|Bill Shankly It's Much More Important Than That The Biography|Stephen F. Kelly|https://images.gr-assets.com/books/1347226653s/1754991.jpg|1752847].
Into Liverpool, into Anfield.
In the ground, in the office, Bill shook hands with Jimmy McInnes, the club secretary. Bill knows Jimmy McInnes. Bill knew Jimmy came from Ayr. Bill knew Jimmy had played for Third Lanark and Liverpool Football Club. Jimmy introduced Bill to the receptionist, the ticket administrators, the cleaners and the groundsman, Arthur Riley. Bill knew Arthur Riley. Bill had worked for Liverpool Football Club for over thirty years. Arthur took Bill to meet the coaching staff. Under the stands, down a corridor. Among the boots, the dirty boots -
This is Bob Paisley, said Arthur Riley. Bob is the first-team trainer. This is Joe Fagan. Joe is in charge of the reserves. This is Reuben Bennett. Reuben takes most of the training. And this is Albert Shelley. Albert used to be first-team trainer. He’s supposed to be retired. But Albert still comes in every day. Albert does whatever needs doing. Albert does everything and anything.
Bill nodded. And Bill said, I know Bob. Me and Bob played against each other on many occasions. We had many a good scrap. And I know Joe. I tried to sign Joe when I was at Grimsby and he was at Manchester City. I know Reuben. Reuben used to work with my brother Bob at Dundee. And I know Albert. I know he lives and breathes Liverpool Football Club. I know you all do. And so I know you men are all good men. True football men. But I also know you fellows have been here a long time. And so I know you’ll all be worrying about me coming in. A new feller with new ways. Different ways. Maybe wanting to bring in new trainers with him. His mates. Well, I’m not going to do that. But I do have my ways. My methods and my systems. And they will be different ways. But I am here to work with you. Not against you. I am here to work in cooperation with you as a team. And so gradually I will lay down my plans and then gradually we will all be on the same wavelength. And in return I want one thing. Loyalty, I want loyalty. So I don’t want anyone to carry stories about anyone else. The man who brings the story to me will be the one that gets the sack. I don’t care if he’s been here fifty years. He’ll be the one who goes. Because I want everyone to be loyal to each other. To the team. And to the club. So everything we do will be for Liverpool Football Club. Not for ourselves. Not as individuals. But for the team. For Liverpool Football Club. Total loyalty. That is all I ask. Because that loyalty makes strength. And that strength will bring success. I promise you.
Shankly’s biggest achievement wasn't so much the trophies he won but his legacy. Three league titles, two FA cups and the UEFA cup in 15 seasons, starting from the 2nd division is impressive, but in the same period Busby and Stein won the European Cup (which eluded Shankly), Robson and Clough also took teams from the 2nd division to winning the 1st, Revie built his own formidable team, and Nicholson and Mee won the league/cup Double. Indeed this picture of adoring fans is actually taken after Liverpool had lost the 1971 FA Cup final to Arsenal's double winners.
But none transformed their club in the same way Shankly did, creating a template for sustained success.
That legacy included handing over to the boot-room team: after Shankly retired in July 1974, he was succeeded by Bob Paisley (to July 1983 - winner of 3 European Cups and 6 league titles in 9 years) who was in turn briefly succeeded by Joe Fagan (to May 1985, his last game being the Heysel Stadium disaster).
Key to Shankly’s popularity was his relationship with, and dedication to, the fans, rooted in his socialist beliefs.
At his first Board meeting he complains about the toilets:
The ones the spectators use?
Yes, said Bill Shankly. The ones in the stands. The ones the people who pay to watch Liverpool Football Club have to use. Those people almost my wages. Those people, those toilets.
As discussed at outset, the key to Peace's style in this novel is repetition, the same methodical repetition that was key to Shankly's training method and approach. Almost every game in his time at the club is described in similar style to the following passage, taken from the start of what would prove to be Liverpool's promotion season into division 1:
On Saturday 19 August, 1961, on the first Saturday of the new season, Liverpool Football Club travelled to the Eastville Stadium, Bristol.
And before the whistle, the first whistle of the new season. In the dressing room, the away dressing room. The players of Liverpool Football Club looked up at Bill Shankly. Bill Shankly in the centre of the dressing room, the away dressing room. Bill Shankly looking around the dressing room, the away dressing room. From player to player, Liverpool player to Liverpool player. From Slater to White, White to Byrne, Byrne to Milne, Milne to Yeats, Yeats to Leishman, Leishman to Lewis, Lewis to Hunt, Hunt to St John, St John to Melia, Melia to A'Court. And Bill Shankly rubbed his hands together—
This is it, said Bill Shankly. This is it, boys! Everything we've been doing. Everything we've been working for, boys. It was all for this moment, all for this game. This first game of the season, boys. This season that will be our season. Our season, boys…
In the seventh minute of this first game of this new season, Kevin Lewis scored. And in the fifty-fifth minute, Hills scored an own goal. And Liverpool Football Club beat Bristol Rovers two–nil. Away from home, away from Anfield. In the first game of the new season.
On Wednesday 23 August, 1961, Sunderland Football Club came to Anfield, Liverpool. That night, forty-eight thousand, nine hundred folk came, too. On a Wednesday night, for the first home game of the season. In the forty-eighth minute of the first home game of the season, Roger Hunt scored. In the seventy-eighth minute, Kevin Lewis scored. And in the eighty-third minute, Hunt scored again. And Liverpool Football Club beat Sunderland Football Club three–nil. At home, at Anfield. In the first home game of the season.
The listing of the results, cumulative point totals and team lists also help create a sense of how the season evolved (although little actual drama), and it is fascinating to see how the teams evolved to the ones that became famous, and how he had to rebuild as players aged and opponents tactics evolved.
This need to rebuild and replace was something Shankly was, by necessity, relatively ruthless at pursuing, while compassionate in terms of handling the people concerned (Bob Paisley had a reputation for being even more successfully ruthless, but handling players impacted less well). To Ian St John, when he is dropped, Shankly tells him:
It comes to us all son. And so you have to be prepared. You have to be ready son. Because you have to decide how to deal with it. Will it be with grace and with dignity. Or will it be with anger and bitterness.
And inevitably it comes to Shankly as well, albeit he retired by his own choice.
Nothing but the sound of chains rattling, knives sharpening and spades digging. At your back, in your shadow. Rattling, sharpening, digging. And ticking. The clock ticking.
Bill knew it was always easier to give up. To throw in the towel. And surrender. To the chains, the knives, to the spades. To take your comfort in past glories, to dine out on past victories. To abandon the present to other men, to leave the future to younger men.
The last third of the novel describes Shankly's retirement. The methodical repetition carries over in his retirement to his daily life - or at least's Peace's description of it. The following passage constitutes about 1/15th of a description of him washing his car:
And Bill walked back round to the bucket. Bill crouched down back beside the bucket. Bill put the cloth back into the water in the bucket. Bill soaked the cloth in the water again. Bill wrang out the cloth again. Bill stood back up with the cloth in his hand. Bill walked round to the far side of the car. And Bill washed the windows on the far side of the car. Back and forth, back and forth. Bill washed the windows on the far side. And Bill walked back round to the bucket.
One that gave him some cause for frustration: the Liverpool Board had to discourage him from returning to the training ground, so as to give the new manager a chance to establish himself, and for a period Shankly found himself more welcome in the Boardroom at Goodison or Old Trafford, than at Anfield.
But he was - and still is - adored in the streets and on the terraces.
Ultimately a moving portrayal of a true great. The literary technique used is effective, and the book a more enjoyable read than my review might suggest, albeit lyrical prose this isn't. 3.5 stars and certainly worthy of his Goldsmith's nomination.
stephend81d5's review
3.0
really detailed novel about bill shankly but felt it could of been abit shorter but felt didn't quite matched the damned utd and felt overall peace could of done a better job with such an icon who retired before his time
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