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draven_deathcrush's review against another edition
adventurous
dark
mysterious
tense
fast-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
5.0
This book was kind of a bumpy ride for me, but I ended up completely loving it. You can really see how George Lucas made Star Wars at the end of this one haha.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Violence, War, and Death
Moderate: Pregnancy, Adult/minor relationship, and Infertility
Minor: Ableism and Incest
trvs49's review against another edition
challenging
dark
mysterious
reflective
tense
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.5
This is a more philosophical, character-driven entry in the Dune series. The elements of adventure, new worlds, and sci-fi take a back seat to the intense character interactions, politics, and schemes. Paul's struggle for control over the universe and the events of the world is the main focus and is highly engaging throughout. Suspicions, schemes, plots within plots, and the reality of a universe ruled by Paul with his Sister at his side as pseudo-gods all culminate in a fantastic narrative with a satisfying end.
Paul's character development is impressive and genuinely satisfying, and it stays true to the character. However, where this book lacks is in the writing of the female characters, which is considerably weaker, although Alia does present as a really cool, complex character. The incest stuff and the age gap between her and some of the characters, as well as the stuff about her dad being her lover, are not necessary, in my opinion.Also, Irulan just being super in love with Paul, although it is alluded to early in the book. I feel it doesn't get enough build-up and attention to make it understandable and believable, especially since she is supposed to be Bene Gesserit but throws away all her loyalties after he dies.
Paul's character development is impressive and genuinely satisfying, and it stays true to the character. However, where this book lacks is in the writing of the female characters, which is considerably weaker, although Alia does present as a really cool, complex character. The incest stuff and the age gap between her and some of the characters, as well as the stuff about her dad being her lover, are not necessary, in my opinion.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Fire/Fire injury, Genocide, Death, Drug use, Drug abuse, Injury/Injury detail, War, Ableism, Adult/minor relationship, Child death, Grief, Incest, Infertility, Murder, Pregnancy, Suicidal thoughts, Suicide, Suicide attempt, and Violence
dakizu's review against another edition
dark
emotional
reflective
sad
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.25
Content Warnings
Graphic: Grief
Moderate: Infertility
Minor: Addiction, Genocide, Suicidal thoughts, Body shaming, Drug use, and Drug abuse
jelliclejules's review against another edition
adventurous
mysterious
reflective
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
Content Warnings
Graphic: Injury/Injury detail, Drug abuse, Murder, and Violence
Moderate: Grief, Pregnancy, Death of parent, Religious bigotry, Xenophobia, War, Addiction, Medical trauma, Ableism, and Classism
Minor: Incest, Infertility, and Suicide
sarah_tani's review against another edition
dark
mysterious
reflective
tense
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
Content Warnings
Moderate: Murder, Adult/minor relationship, Incest, Violence, Suicide, Grief, War, Genocide, Death, Drug use, Infertility, and Pregnancy
gvstyris's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.5
Religion, too, is a weapon. What manner of weapon is religion when it becomes the government?
Dune Messiah is strikingly more didactic than its predecessor, jumping twelve years to follow a conspiracy against Paul's now-established rule over the empire. I'm struggling a bit to rate and condense my feelings about this novel, primarily because of how different it is to Dune.
Dune Messiah is theoretically right up my alley: it explores the corrupting influences of power and the inherent problems faced by a government built on religious worship and fabricated idolatry. Herbert is not intending to replicate the first novel's epic sense of adventure, but I would still argue that this sequel suffers a little without it. Its slow-burn is a bit painful, yet it ultimately still offers a much more nuanced (and needed!) character analysis of Paul, which I thoroughly enjoyed. I also really loved the discussion surrounding the Fremen's loss of cultural identity with 'modernisation.'
I'll definitely be considering continuing the series, but am mainly just hyped to see how Villeneuve chooses to adapt this story given his changes to Chani's character.
Content Warnings
Moderate: Death, Grief, Infertility, Medical trauma, and Pregnancy
Minor: Incest
aileron's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
reflective
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
2.5
Content Warnings
Graphic: Infertility, Injury/Injury detail, Drug use, and Pregnancy
Moderate: Incest, Murder, Death, Grief, Colonisation, Fire/Fire injury, Suicidal thoughts, Violence, and Suicide
Minor: Ableism, Genocide, Child death, Religious bigotry, and War
roget's review against another edition
dark
reflective
fast-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.0
There's so much going on here, and this review is full of spoilers, so skip it if you don't want it ruined for you.
1.) Paul's on about trying to disengage the jihad all of Dune 1 and, to an extent, 2. There's this path of "discrediting himself" that he talks about, but at the end, the path he takes is one that doesn't discredit himself?? Duncan's literally reflecting on how Paul's final actions establish him as a religious figurehead for the Fremen people.
2.) There's clearly a theme here about Paul having no power over his power, and being mostly just aware of the flow of time but ultimately just as tossed about by it as everyone else. I get that. But also, he's so resistant to changing and stepping off the path in case one of the worse visions happen that he lets an incomprehensible genocide play out to avoid a somehow even worse incomprehensible genocide? Am I getting that right? There was no point at which he might've given an order to "no, leave that planet alone?" or "no, don't kill all those people?" That just...wouldn't have worked? What's Herbert trying to say, here? That certain pressures and rhetoric are unstoppably destructive?
3.) Chani and Irulan deserved better, but Chani deserved way, way better.
4.) The incest thing was extremely ick. As was Herbert sexualizing the crap out of a fourteen/fifteen year old girl's body. I don't give a fig about the acrobatics the story performs to make Alia a grown-up inside. This stuff isn't thought-up in a vacuum, and therefore it absolutely merits some major side eye. That alone knocked my enjoyment of this novel down multiple stars.
5.) Chani should've been given a voice to speak to Paul's decision making on her and their children's behalf. There was opportunity for good conflict there, and it floated out the window because Chani's reduced to an Ophelia, here.
And that's the center of the biggest issue for me--once again, we have all significant women characters ending up fridged or holding the short end of the stick. And Paul who I'd assumed would fall from power (based on how everyone talks about this book), ends up valorized by the very people he manipulated in the first book.
I'd find his fear of other futures more convincing if the text gave us more solidity and detail about those futures, but most of it is kept rather vague, and the only points that are expanded are the more personal, AU fates of Chani and their children. I'm just a little ?????
Like, what's the take, here? Poor Paul, he couldn't help but do an intergalactic genocide?
And to be clear--I was completely prepared and ready to witness some Shakespearean-level tragedy. I was not expecting a happy ending for anyone. But the sad ending I got was so disappointing, and there was no justice in it re: Paul, the empire, or the Fremen people. By the way this is talked about, I was expecting some fire post-colonial or anti-imperial commentary, and I was just underwhelmed on that front.
Duncan Idaho (Alia plot points WILDLY aside) was the main high point. That was interesting, and his coming back to himself was cool.
1.) Paul's on about trying to disengage the jihad all of Dune 1 and, to an extent, 2. There's this path of "discrediting himself" that he talks about, but at the end, the path he takes is one that doesn't discredit himself?? Duncan's literally reflecting on how Paul's final actions establish him as a religious figurehead for the Fremen people.
2.) There's clearly a theme here about Paul having no power over his power, and being mostly just aware of the flow of time but ultimately just as tossed about by it as everyone else. I get that. But also, he's so resistant to changing and stepping off the path in case one of the worse visions happen that he lets an incomprehensible genocide play out to avoid a somehow even worse incomprehensible genocide? Am I getting that right? There was no point at which he might've given an order to "no, leave that planet alone?" or "no, don't kill all those people?" That just...wouldn't have worked? What's Herbert trying to say, here? That certain pressures and rhetoric are unstoppably destructive?
3.) Chani and Irulan deserved better, but Chani deserved way, way better.
4.) The incest thing was extremely ick. As was Herbert sexualizing the crap out of a fourteen/fifteen year old girl's body. I don't give a fig about the acrobatics the story performs to make Alia a grown-up inside. This stuff isn't thought-up in a vacuum, and therefore it absolutely merits some major side eye. That alone knocked my enjoyment of this novel down multiple stars.
5.) Chani should've been given a voice to speak to Paul's decision making on her and their children's behalf. There was opportunity for good conflict there, and it floated out the window because Chani's reduced to an Ophelia, here.
And that's the center of the biggest issue for me--once again, we have all significant women characters ending up fridged or holding the short end of the stick. And Paul who I'd assumed would fall from power (based on how everyone talks about this book), ends up valorized by the very people he manipulated in the first book.
I'd find his fear of other futures more convincing if the text gave us more solidity and detail about those futures, but most of it is kept rather vague, and the only points that are expanded are the more personal, AU fates of Chani and their children. I'm just a little ?????
Like, what's the take, here? Poor Paul, he couldn't help but do an intergalactic genocide?
And to be clear--I was completely prepared and ready to witness some Shakespearean-level tragedy. I was not expecting a happy ending for anyone. But the sad ending I got was so disappointing, and there was no justice in it re: Paul, the empire, or the Fremen people. By the way this is talked about, I was expecting some fire post-colonial or anti-imperial commentary, and I was just underwhelmed on that front.
Duncan Idaho (Alia plot points WILDLY aside) was the main high point. That was interesting, and his coming back to himself was cool.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Incest, Adult/minor relationship, Drug abuse, Addiction, Colonisation, Misogyny, Pregnancy, Death, Pedophilia, Sexism, Genocide, Suicide, Infertility, Death of parent, and Violence
luis_vieira's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
mysterious
reflective
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
5.0
Content Warnings
Graphic: Infertility, Drug abuse, and Cultural appropriation
Moderate: Pregnancy, Murder, Adult/minor relationship, and Grief
Minor: Incest
lqne's review against another edition
mysterious
reflective
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? It's complicated
4.5
Content Warnings
Graphic: Infertility, Colonisation, War, and Pregnancy
Moderate: Adult/minor relationship, Religious bigotry, and Incest
Minor: Death, Torture, Child death, and Addiction