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lilac_rose's review against another edition
The way the author describes Paul sister then tells us she is 16 is a big nope.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Pedophilia
roget's review against another edition
dark
reflective
fast-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.0
There's so much going on here, and this review is full of spoilers, so skip it if you don't want it ruined for you.
1.) Paul's on about trying to disengage the jihad all of Dune 1 and, to an extent, 2. There's this path of "discrediting himself" that he talks about, but at the end, the path he takes is one that doesn't discredit himself?? Duncan's literally reflecting on how Paul's final actions establish him as a religious figurehead for the Fremen people.
2.) There's clearly a theme here about Paul having no power over his power, and being mostly just aware of the flow of time but ultimately just as tossed about by it as everyone else. I get that. But also, he's so resistant to changing and stepping off the path in case one of the worse visions happen that he lets an incomprehensible genocide play out to avoid a somehow even worse incomprehensible genocide? Am I getting that right? There was no point at which he might've given an order to "no, leave that planet alone?" or "no, don't kill all those people?" That just...wouldn't have worked? What's Herbert trying to say, here? That certain pressures and rhetoric are unstoppably destructive?
3.) Chani and Irulan deserved better, but Chani deserved way, way better.
4.) The incest thing was extremely ick. As was Herbert sexualizing the crap out of a fourteen/fifteen year old girl's body. I don't give a fig about the acrobatics the story performs to make Alia a grown-up inside. This stuff isn't thought-up in a vacuum, and therefore it absolutely merits some major side eye. That alone knocked my enjoyment of this novel down multiple stars.
5.) Chani should've been given a voice to speak to Paul's decision making on her and their children's behalf. There was opportunity for good conflict there, and it floated out the window because Chani's reduced to an Ophelia, here.
And that's the center of the biggest issue for me--once again, we have all significant women characters ending up fridged or holding the short end of the stick. And Paul who I'd assumed would fall from power (based on how everyone talks about this book), ends up valorized by the very people he manipulated in the first book.
I'd find his fear of other futures more convincing if the text gave us more solidity and detail about those futures, but most of it is kept rather vague, and the only points that are expanded are the more personal, AU fates of Chani and their children. I'm just a little ?????
Like, what's the take, here? Poor Paul, he couldn't help but do an intergalactic genocide?
And to be clear--I was completely prepared and ready to witness some Shakespearean-level tragedy. I was not expecting a happy ending for anyone. But the sad ending I got was so disappointing, and there was no justice in it re: Paul, the empire, or the Fremen people. By the way this is talked about, I was expecting some fire post-colonial or anti-imperial commentary, and I was just underwhelmed on that front.
Duncan Idaho (Alia plot points WILDLY aside) was the main high point. That was interesting, and his coming back to himself was cool.
1.) Paul's on about trying to disengage the jihad all of Dune 1 and, to an extent, 2. There's this path of "discrediting himself" that he talks about, but at the end, the path he takes is one that doesn't discredit himself?? Duncan's literally reflecting on how Paul's final actions establish him as a religious figurehead for the Fremen people.
2.) There's clearly a theme here about Paul having no power over his power, and being mostly just aware of the flow of time but ultimately just as tossed about by it as everyone else. I get that. But also, he's so resistant to changing and stepping off the path in case one of the worse visions happen that he lets an incomprehensible genocide play out to avoid a somehow even worse incomprehensible genocide? Am I getting that right? There was no point at which he might've given an order to "no, leave that planet alone?" or "no, don't kill all those people?" That just...wouldn't have worked? What's Herbert trying to say, here? That certain pressures and rhetoric are unstoppably destructive?
3.) Chani and Irulan deserved better, but Chani deserved way, way better.
4.) The incest thing was extremely ick. As was Herbert sexualizing the crap out of a fourteen/fifteen year old girl's body. I don't give a fig about the acrobatics the story performs to make Alia a grown-up inside. This stuff isn't thought-up in a vacuum, and therefore it absolutely merits some major side eye. That alone knocked my enjoyment of this novel down multiple stars.
5.) Chani should've been given a voice to speak to Paul's decision making on her and their children's behalf. There was opportunity for good conflict there, and it floated out the window because Chani's reduced to an Ophelia, here.
And that's the center of the biggest issue for me--once again, we have all significant women characters ending up fridged or holding the short end of the stick. And Paul who I'd assumed would fall from power (based on how everyone talks about this book), ends up valorized by the very people he manipulated in the first book.
I'd find his fear of other futures more convincing if the text gave us more solidity and detail about those futures, but most of it is kept rather vague, and the only points that are expanded are the more personal, AU fates of Chani and their children. I'm just a little ?????
Like, what's the take, here? Poor Paul, he couldn't help but do an intergalactic genocide?
And to be clear--I was completely prepared and ready to witness some Shakespearean-level tragedy. I was not expecting a happy ending for anyone. But the sad ending I got was so disappointing, and there was no justice in it re: Paul, the empire, or the Fremen people. By the way this is talked about, I was expecting some fire post-colonial or anti-imperial commentary, and I was just underwhelmed on that front.
Duncan Idaho (Alia plot points WILDLY aside) was the main high point. That was interesting, and his coming back to himself was cool.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Incest, Adult/minor relationship, Drug abuse, Addiction, Colonisation, Misogyny, Pregnancy, Death, Pedophilia, Sexism, Genocide, Suicide, Infertility, Death of parent, and Violence
rem26's review against another edition
dark
emotional
mysterious
reflective
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.75
Content Warnings
Minor: Incest and Pedophilia
wispy_reviews's review against another edition
adventurous
dark
emotional
mysterious
reflective
tense
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.5
While not the strongest installment in the Dune series, Messiah does a lot to further develop Paul’s character as he lives with the consequences of his actions from the first book. It’s poetic to watch this all-powerful man walk to his own damnation, on a path that he laid himself. Part of me wonders if this was intended to be the finale of the series, with how tightly it wraps everything up.
It’s always fun talking to my friends about this one since the opinions vary wildly, especially when it comes to Paul and his behavior. Is he a tragic hero(?) fallen victim to an inescapable fate, or an entitled tyrant who uses fate to escape responsibility? Herbert clearly implies one over the other, but that can be telling in and of itself.
It’s always fun talking to my friends about this one since the opinions vary wildly, especially when it comes to Paul and his behavior. Is he a tragic hero(?) fallen victim to an inescapable fate, or an entitled tyrant who uses fate to escape responsibility? Herbert clearly implies one over the other, but that can be telling in and of itself.
Content Warnings
Moderate: Pedophilia
Minor: Adult/minor relationship
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