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jelliclejules's review against another edition
adventurous
mysterious
reflective
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
Content Warnings
Graphic: Injury/Injury detail, Drug abuse, Murder, and Violence
Moderate: Grief, Pregnancy, Death of parent, Religious bigotry, Xenophobia, War, Addiction, Medical trauma, Ableism, and Classism
Minor: Incest, Infertility, and Suicide
roget's review against another edition
dark
reflective
fast-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.0
There's so much going on here, and this review is full of spoilers, so skip it if you don't want it ruined for you.
1.) Paul's on about trying to disengage the jihad all of Dune 1 and, to an extent, 2. There's this path of "discrediting himself" that he talks about, but at the end, the path he takes is one that doesn't discredit himself?? Duncan's literally reflecting on how Paul's final actions establish him as a religious figurehead for the Fremen people.
2.) There's clearly a theme here about Paul having no power over his power, and being mostly just aware of the flow of time but ultimately just as tossed about by it as everyone else. I get that. But also, he's so resistant to changing and stepping off the path in case one of the worse visions happen that he lets an incomprehensible genocide play out to avoid a somehow even worse incomprehensible genocide? Am I getting that right? There was no point at which he might've given an order to "no, leave that planet alone?" or "no, don't kill all those people?" That just...wouldn't have worked? What's Herbert trying to say, here? That certain pressures and rhetoric are unstoppably destructive?
3.) Chani and Irulan deserved better, but Chani deserved way, way better.
4.) The incest thing was extremely ick. As was Herbert sexualizing the crap out of a fourteen/fifteen year old girl's body. I don't give a fig about the acrobatics the story performs to make Alia a grown-up inside. This stuff isn't thought-up in a vacuum, and therefore it absolutely merits some major side eye. That alone knocked my enjoyment of this novel down multiple stars.
5.) Chani should've been given a voice to speak to Paul's decision making on her and their children's behalf. There was opportunity for good conflict there, and it floated out the window because Chani's reduced to an Ophelia, here.
And that's the center of the biggest issue for me--once again, we have all significant women characters ending up fridged or holding the short end of the stick. And Paul who I'd assumed would fall from power (based on how everyone talks about this book), ends up valorized by the very people he manipulated in the first book.
I'd find his fear of other futures more convincing if the text gave us more solidity and detail about those futures, but most of it is kept rather vague, and the only points that are expanded are the more personal, AU fates of Chani and their children. I'm just a little ?????
Like, what's the take, here? Poor Paul, he couldn't help but do an intergalactic genocide?
And to be clear--I was completely prepared and ready to witness some Shakespearean-level tragedy. I was not expecting a happy ending for anyone. But the sad ending I got was so disappointing, and there was no justice in it re: Paul, the empire, or the Fremen people. By the way this is talked about, I was expecting some fire post-colonial or anti-imperial commentary, and I was just underwhelmed on that front.
Duncan Idaho (Alia plot points WILDLY aside) was the main high point. That was interesting, and his coming back to himself was cool.
1.) Paul's on about trying to disengage the jihad all of Dune 1 and, to an extent, 2. There's this path of "discrediting himself" that he talks about, but at the end, the path he takes is one that doesn't discredit himself?? Duncan's literally reflecting on how Paul's final actions establish him as a religious figurehead for the Fremen people.
2.) There's clearly a theme here about Paul having no power over his power, and being mostly just aware of the flow of time but ultimately just as tossed about by it as everyone else. I get that. But also, he's so resistant to changing and stepping off the path in case one of the worse visions happen that he lets an incomprehensible genocide play out to avoid a somehow even worse incomprehensible genocide? Am I getting that right? There was no point at which he might've given an order to "no, leave that planet alone?" or "no, don't kill all those people?" That just...wouldn't have worked? What's Herbert trying to say, here? That certain pressures and rhetoric are unstoppably destructive?
3.) Chani and Irulan deserved better, but Chani deserved way, way better.
4.) The incest thing was extremely ick. As was Herbert sexualizing the crap out of a fourteen/fifteen year old girl's body. I don't give a fig about the acrobatics the story performs to make Alia a grown-up inside. This stuff isn't thought-up in a vacuum, and therefore it absolutely merits some major side eye. That alone knocked my enjoyment of this novel down multiple stars.
5.) Chani should've been given a voice to speak to Paul's decision making on her and their children's behalf. There was opportunity for good conflict there, and it floated out the window because Chani's reduced to an Ophelia, here.
And that's the center of the biggest issue for me--once again, we have all significant women characters ending up fridged or holding the short end of the stick. And Paul who I'd assumed would fall from power (based on how everyone talks about this book), ends up valorized by the very people he manipulated in the first book.
I'd find his fear of other futures more convincing if the text gave us more solidity and detail about those futures, but most of it is kept rather vague, and the only points that are expanded are the more personal, AU fates of Chani and their children. I'm just a little ?????
Like, what's the take, here? Poor Paul, he couldn't help but do an intergalactic genocide?
And to be clear--I was completely prepared and ready to witness some Shakespearean-level tragedy. I was not expecting a happy ending for anyone. But the sad ending I got was so disappointing, and there was no justice in it re: Paul, the empire, or the Fremen people. By the way this is talked about, I was expecting some fire post-colonial or anti-imperial commentary, and I was just underwhelmed on that front.
Duncan Idaho (Alia plot points WILDLY aside) was the main high point. That was interesting, and his coming back to himself was cool.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Incest, Adult/minor relationship, Drug abuse, Addiction, Colonisation, Misogyny, Pregnancy, Death, Pedophilia, Sexism, Genocide, Suicide, Infertility, Death of parent, and Violence
infinite_harness9030's review against another edition
challenging
dark
reflective
sad
tense
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.5
Content Warnings
Moderate: Infertility, Grief, Murder, Suicide, Violence, War, and Xenophobia
Minor: Addiction, Confinement, Death of parent, Body horror, Colonisation, Drug use, Pregnancy, Self harm, Death, and Slavery
josiah17's review against another edition
dark
reflective
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.0
This book is decent. For starters, I think the themes and warnings about the power and role of governance, as well as deifying leaders, are well done. They remain relevant today and clearly Frank Herbert was passionate about expressing this caution and philosophy. This is easily the best part about the book.
"There exists a limit to the force even the most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengeance, never a hostage, nor a fortifications against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences."
I also found Herbert's prose to feel more polished than I remember from reading Dune a year ago. It matches the philosophical and introspective tone quite well.
However, even if the themes and prose are good, they're not quite enough to make up for the elements of the book I found to be lackluster.
The plot introduces some good promise of a conspiracy (minor spoiler). However I don't feel that it delivers on this promise in a manner that is ultimately satisfying.
I also found that I didn't really feel anything for the characters besides resentment towards Paul. I think the massive time jump doesn't help with this either. And I saw someone say something along the lines of Herbert writing his characters as if they're more so pieces on a chess board to convey certain messages, and I think that's accurate to how I feel. They feel more like plot devices rather then real people I'm supposed to connect with. Not that that's necessarily poor character writing, but I'm not sure it works for me. And I didn't have any problem with the subversion of the Messiah archetype with Paul; I actually thought the execution was solid. It's just that I had no strong feelings or attachment to the characters.
And finally, part of the appeal to reading the Dune books was Herbert's praised worldbuilding. I found Dune to match and even exceed the hype around Herbert's worldbuilding. What he's able to do in building Arrakis and the entire Fremen cultural is nothing short of extraordinary. However, because all of that worldbuilding is done in the first book and we remain on Arrakis for this book, Dune Messiah feels like it's missing something captivating to me. I hope that makes sense. I just miss the level of worldbuilding of the first book.
Ultimately, I think this is a step down from Dune.
Content Warnings
Moderate: War and Death of parent
nils_0's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
dark
mysterious
tense
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? It's complicated
4.0
Content Warnings
Graphic: Addiction, Child death, Death of parent, Miscarriage, Violence, War, Murder, Drug use, Grief, Incest, Abortion, Cannibalism, Cursing, Death, and Pregnancy
melancholymegs's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
dark
mysterious
tense
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Plot
- Strong character development? N/A
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? It's complicated
3.0
Content Warnings
Graphic: Violence, Murder, Schizophrenia/Psychosis , Racism, Slavery, Death of parent, Death, and Pregnancy
Moderate: Fire/Fire injury, Blood, Injury/Injury detail, and Adult/minor relationship
Minor: Incest
finn_1312's review against another edition
mysterious
tense
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.5
Content Warnings
Graphic: Colonisation, Violence, Grief, Death of parent, and War
Moderate: Slavery and Drug use
Minor: Incest
eurypterus's review against another edition
challenging
dark
mysterious
tense
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.5
Paul has to come to terms with fate and a plot to control him.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Colonisation, Death, Death of parent, Schizophrenia/Psychosis , Murder, War, Pregnancy, Panic attacks/disorders, Drug use, and Drug abuse
Moderate: Infertility, Grief, Blood, Body horror, Torture, and Religious bigotry
Minor: Incest and Child death
harperxxxx's review against another edition
challenging
sad
tense
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.75
Content Warnings
Minor: Abandonment, Xenophobia, Suicide, Death of parent, Kidnapping, Colonisation, Addiction, Violence, Toxic relationship, Drug use, Confinement, Slavery, Incest, Grief, Trafficking, War, Religious bigotry, Death, Blood, Body horror, Infertility, Medical trauma, Medical content, Stalking, Child death, Pregnancy, and Suicidal thoughts
bergha1998's review against another edition
adventurous
dark
emotional
reflective
sad
tense
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.75
The main theme of this book is how power corrupts. It takes the whole Dune series in a completely different trajectory. We watch Paul in Dune and believe him to be the “savior,” but in this one we see that even he falls when given absolute power.
“They’re trained to believe? Not to know. Belief can be manipulated. Only knowledge is dangerous.”
“There is nothing firm, nothing balanced, nothing durable in all the universe—that nothing remains in its state, that each day, sometimes each hour, brings change.”
“If you need something to worship, then worship life—all life, every last crawling bit of it! We’re all in this beauty together!”
“They’re trained to believe? Not to know. Belief can be manipulated. Only knowledge is dangerous.”
“There is nothing firm, nothing balanced, nothing durable in all the universe—that nothing remains in its state, that each day, sometimes each hour, brings change.”
“If you need something to worship, then worship life—all life, every last crawling bit of it! We’re all in this beauty together!”
Content Warnings
Graphic: Slavery, Drug use, Drug abuse, Gun violence, Infertility, Murder, Genocide, Cursing, Fire/Fire injury, Violence, Colonisation, Grief, Injury/Injury detail, Death of parent, Pregnancy, Death, War, and Addiction