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4.46 AVERAGE
4.46 AVERAGE
dark
emotional
slow-paced
I felt that (especially toward the end) some of the translations were a bit too anachronistic for my taste?
But the combination of the three plays, the story of this string of revenges that never seems to end and brings no happiness to anyone... it was a powerful choice!
Maybe seeing it performed would be better?
But the combination of the three plays, the story of this string of revenges that never seems to end and brings no happiness to anyone... it was a powerful choice!
Maybe seeing it performed would be better?
dark
emotional
reflective
tense
medium-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
Character
Strong character development:
Complicated
Loveable characters:
Complicated
Diverse cast of characters:
No
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
updating this (read in 2022) because i keep going back to that review and wonder if it's that accurate. ultimately, i think the idea of having three plays from three different poets is the reason i didn't like it the first time. poets change the mythic characters and they change their personalities, their reasonings and not having a linear progression, i'm guessing, threw me off. i (and i'm not blaming myself, it's just a fact) think that forgetting the bigger picture, the fact that it's a myth and that they are RE-telling it and switching details, is what caused this. obivously sophocles' elektra is not going to be the same as euripides' elektra. i think i should reread those plays, and maybe read each time a few plays from the same poet, in order to understand the context more. overall, this leads me to believe that creating an "oresteia" from three different playwrights was not the best idea for me, but it's still an interesting take for Carson
anyway, here is part of my previous review because it was still fun:
Klytaimestra was so right when she said in Aiskhylos' Agamemnon : "And why get angry at Helen? As if she singlehandedly destroyed those multitudes of men. As if she all alone made this wound in us.". I can't tell you how disgusted I was when in Euripide's Orestes, when the Chorus + Elektra + Orestes + Pylade said the following things about Helen :
> ELEKTRA : All the women of that family are trouble. (Do I need to remind you that Agamemnon and Menelaos sent countless of men, sacrificed them and murdered/massacred countless others for the sake of one woman who was kidnapped. She can be seen as the cause for the massacre of course but it was their decision. Agamemnon still killed his own daughter, cheated on his wife (which is apparently a crime when Klytaimestra does it but never talked about when Agamemnon did) and brought his mistress to his home??)
> ORESTES : And as for your daughter - the word mother shames me - you know she had something going on the side.
(you know who had something going on the side? your dad)
> ORESTES : Picture this: wanton wome throughout the land murdering husbands, running to sons for refuge, hunting pity with bared breasts - they'd be killing their men at the slightest pretext.
(oh really Orestes? it actually makes me think about the war. where your people slaughtered the trojans and the trojans slaughtered your people that your father sent to immediate death for a single woman)
> CHORUS : Women always complicate things.
> PYLADES : Where is she, that weapon of mass destruction?
> MESSENGER : She was a threat to our whole way of life, he said. How could we go off to war with wives like that at home, defiling the master's bed!
> PYLADES : But all Greeks want this whore taken out. She's virtually a mass murderer.
(hm maybe rethink about what you just said... mass murderer...)
> CHORUS : She's a disgrace to her sex that Helen.
> MENELAOS : Your mother's blood wasn't enough for you?
ORESTES : I could never tire of killing evil women.
And that last quote is my main problem: I don't understand why Orestes think he's legitimate to kill his mother but she was not to kill her husband? Considering the fact that he considers himself as a "slave to the Gods", why would he think he deserves to live?
There were some funny moments though:
CHORUS : Brave girl.
KASSANDRA : People never say that to a lucky person do they?
SLAVE : Don't believe Helen screwed Greece as well as Troy? Please.
ORESTES : Swear you do, or I'll kill you.
SLAVE : I swear on my life! Is that convincing?
ORESTES : Afraid of turning to stone? Like people who see the Gorgon?
SLAVE : Afraid of turning to corpse. What's a Gorgon?
SLAVE : You won't kill me?
ORESTES : Go.
SLAVE : Fabulous.
ORESTES : Unless I reconsider.
SLAVE : Not fabulous
anyway, here is part of my previous review because it was still fun:
Klytaimestra was so right when she said in Aiskhylos' Agamemnon : "And why get angry at Helen? As if she singlehandedly destroyed those multitudes of men. As if she all alone made this wound in us.". I can't tell you how disgusted I was when in Euripide's Orestes, when the Chorus + Elektra + Orestes + Pylade said the following things about Helen :
> ELEKTRA : All the women of that family are trouble. (Do I need to remind you that Agamemnon and Menelaos sent countless of men, sacrificed them and murdered/massacred countless others for the sake of one woman who was kidnapped. She can be seen as the cause for the massacre of course but it was their decision. Agamemnon still killed his own daughter, cheated on his wife (which is apparently a crime when Klytaimestra does it but never talked about when Agamemnon did) and brought his mistress to his home??)
> ORESTES : And as for your daughter - the word mother shames me - you know she had something going on the side.
(you know who had something going on the side? your dad)
> ORESTES : Picture this: wanton wome throughout the land murdering husbands, running to sons for refuge, hunting pity with bared breasts - they'd be killing their men at the slightest pretext.
(oh really Orestes? it actually makes me think about the war. where your people slaughtered the trojans and the trojans slaughtered your people that your father sent to immediate death for a single woman)
> CHORUS : Women always complicate things.
> PYLADES : Where is she, that weapon of mass destruction?
> MESSENGER : She was a threat to our whole way of life, he said. How could we go off to war with wives like that at home, defiling the master's bed!
> PYLADES : But all Greeks want this whore taken out. She's virtually a mass murderer.
(hm maybe rethink about what you just said... mass murderer...)
> CHORUS : She's a disgrace to her sex that Helen.
> MENELAOS : Your mother's blood wasn't enough for you?
ORESTES : I could never tire of killing evil women.
And that last quote is my main problem: I don't understand why Orestes think he's legitimate to kill his mother but she was not to kill her husband? Considering the fact that he considers himself as a "slave to the Gods", why would he think he deserves to live?
There were some funny moments though:
CHORUS : Brave girl.
KASSANDRA : People never say that to a lucky person do they?
SLAVE : Don't believe Helen screwed Greece as well as Troy? Please.
ORESTES : Swear you do, or I'll kill you.
SLAVE : I swear on my life! Is that convincing?
ORESTES : Afraid of turning to stone? Like people who see the Gorgon?
SLAVE : Afraid of turning to corpse. What's a Gorgon?
SLAVE : You won't kill me?
ORESTES : Go.
SLAVE : Fabulous.
ORESTES : Unless I reconsider.
SLAVE : Not fabulous
dark
tense
medium-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
N/A
Strong character development:
No
Loveable characters:
No
Diverse cast of characters:
N/A
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
reflective
fast-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
Character
Loveable characters:
Complicated
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes
4/5
Pylades: I'll take care of you.
Orestes: It's rotten work.
Pylades: Not to me. Not if it's you.
This quote by itself persuaded me to read Anne Carson's translation. I cannot comment on the actual translation as I don't know Ancient Greek and haven't read any other translations yet, so this review is only for the plays themselves (as translated by Anne Carson).
The main thing I've taken away is, wow, the Ancient Greeks really love blaming women for absolutely everything!
After this, I definitely want to pick up retellings centring and written by women. Reading about these awful men and even the women's cries against other women was tiring to say the least. Obviously these are great stories and fundamental to Greek tragedies, but they only reminded me how thankful I am for the retellings we get now.
Every single women deserved better; Iphigenia, Kassandra, Klytaimestra, Elektra, Chrysothemis, Helen, Hermione. I wish I could save them all.
Anne Carson delivers some absolutely beautiful lines and has modernised her translation slightly to make it more accessible. Some words and lines were surprising to find in the text because of this however I don't believe that any of them truly bring you out of the story.
I cannot say this for sure, as I haven't read any others, but I think Anne Carson's more modern translation also improved parts. For example, the lines I quoted at the beginning wouldn't have existed like so in any other text (I believe, correct me if I am wrong) but it translates the emotions of the scene and their bond perfectly.
No translation can ever be perfect. A translator must pick what it is that they value most in their translation, accuracy or emotion. Translators fall all across this line and some add values that turn this line into a wheel. All that being said, I thought this translation was beautiful.
Orestes: We are slaves to the gods. Whatever gods are.
I also want to add that you need very minimal knowledge (you could probably survive with no knowledge) of Greek mythology/Ancient Greece to understand these.
Pylades: I'll take care of you.
Orestes: It's rotten work.
Pylades: Not to me. Not if it's you.
This quote by itself persuaded me to read Anne Carson's translation. I cannot comment on the actual translation as I don't know Ancient Greek and haven't read any other translations yet, so this review is only for the plays themselves (as translated by Anne Carson).
The main thing I've taken away is, wow, the Ancient Greeks really love blaming women for absolutely everything!
After this, I definitely want to pick up retellings centring and written by women. Reading about these awful men and even the women's cries against other women was tiring to say the least. Obviously these are great stories and fundamental to Greek tragedies, but they only reminded me how thankful I am for the retellings we get now.
Every single women deserved better; Iphigenia, Kassandra, Klytaimestra, Elektra, Chrysothemis, Helen, Hermione. I wish I could save them all.
Anne Carson delivers some absolutely beautiful lines and has modernised her translation slightly to make it more accessible. Some words and lines were surprising to find in the text because of this however I don't believe that any of them truly bring you out of the story.
I cannot say this for sure, as I haven't read any others, but I think Anne Carson's more modern translation also improved parts. For example, the lines I quoted at the beginning wouldn't have existed like so in any other text (I believe, correct me if I am wrong) but it translates the emotions of the scene and their bond perfectly.
No translation can ever be perfect. A translator must pick what it is that they value most in their translation, accuracy or emotion. Translators fall all across this line and some add values that turn this line into a wheel. All that being said, I thought this translation was beautiful.
Orestes: We are slaves to the gods. Whatever gods are.
I also want to add that you need very minimal knowledge (you could probably survive with no knowledge) of Greek mythology/Ancient Greece to understand these.
I found this translation to be very unsure of itself and kind of all over the place. Carson was trying to preserve the flowery writing and beauty of the original text but still make it accessible to a modern audience... however, her idea of “accessible” is basically exclusively using contractions and modern-day euphemisms.
It just didn’t work. I don’t want to explore the symbolism of a red carpet alongside phrases like “real bad shit happening,” “Apollo will come through” (that’s a paraphrase but “come through” was used verbatim), “you got us on a bad day,” etc. It spoiled the essence of the plays, which I actually enjoyed the storylines but it just felt so dumbed down.
There’s a difference between making a pretty sophisticated and complicated text accessible to a modern audience without insulting said modern audience’s intelligence. This would’ve been more forgivable with ZERO contractions and less phrases that I could picture my sister saying.
That being said I think this is probably a great introduction to reading translated Greek plays, seeing as how now I want to read a properly translated version of the Oresteia because I am sure it would take me longer than a day to read and it would actually make me think.
It just didn’t work. I don’t want to explore the symbolism of a red carpet alongside phrases like “real bad shit happening,” “Apollo will come through” (that’s a paraphrase but “come through” was used verbatim), “you got us on a bad day,” etc. It spoiled the essence of the plays, which I actually enjoyed the storylines but it just felt so dumbed down.
There’s a difference between making a pretty sophisticated and complicated text accessible to a modern audience without insulting said modern audience’s intelligence. This would’ve been more forgivable with ZERO contractions and less phrases that I could picture my sister saying.
That being said I think this is probably a great introduction to reading translated Greek plays, seeing as how now I want to read a properly translated version of the Oresteia because I am sure it would take me longer than a day to read and it would actually make me think.
Ok I feel like I should be mildly coherent in my review here. Basically, I have no objection to the translation itself, which was worded well and poetic enough that I could appreciate it occasionally beside my distaste for the story itself. I’m not gonna spend a lot of time objecting to a Greek play being a Greek play but hot damn, does this shit hate women. And decisions that make any sense
This was just so good. The raw power of every single one of these lines is indescribable but I'm definitely considering getting a physical copy so I can make annotations.
Magnifique. Les traductions de Anne Carson sont poétiques tout en étant accessibles. Les traductions plus traditionnelles peuvent rendre les personnages intouchables. Les siècles qui nous séparent sont insurmontables. Mais dans ces traductions-ci, on pourrait presque les toucher, ces personnages. J'ai ressenti la furie de Clytemnestre (la manminded woman), la douleur de Électre (avec la dangerous tongue) et la tourmente d'Oreste (a mother killer (..) a father avenger).
La tragédie est d’autant plus tragique qu’elle est familiale. Ils s’aiment, se haïssent, se déçoivent mutuellement et, évidemment, s’entretuent mais comme Clytemnestre avoue : No matter how you suffer, you cannot hate a child you’ve borne.
La particularité de ce livre, c'est qu'il rassemble les pièces d'auteurs différents à d'époques différentes. Le mythe, au fil des guerres et des politiques, évolue et ouvre une fenêtre sur son époque. Par ailleurs, l’introduction de chaque pièce par Anne Carson recèle de pépites d’informations.
Les pièces parlent de justice : chaque personnage réclame justice (perso, Agamemnon l’a cherché). Mais quand le meurtre est la punition pour un meurtre, ils se piègent eux-mêmes dans un cycle de vengeance. Depuis que leur ancêtre Tantale a tué son propre fils, le lien de sang de cette famille pèse comme une malédiction.
La première pièce d’Eschyle est ma préférée, il faut dire que les répliques de Clytemnestre sont jouissives. Elle ne s'embarrasse d'aucune honte.
HAHHA j’adore.
J'ai lu la seconde pièce de Sophocle en parallèle avec l'essai d'Anne Carson "gender of sound" sur la voix des femmes, les préjudices attachés et le mutisme qui lui est imposé, un essai qui a enrichi la lecture de cette pièce. En effet, Électre ne peut rien faire, mais elle ne se tait pas. On peut lui reprocher d’être inactive, ennuyante, geignarde si vous voulez, mais elle est tout sauf silencieuse !
My cries are wings: they pierce the cage.
Elle crie, elle pleure, elle insulte et, comme sa mère avoue, fait plus de dégâts encore qu'Oreste (And to tell you the truth, she did more damage). Et les dialogues entre mère et fille sont saisissants de par leur rancœur et violence. Elles qui se ressemblent plus qu’elles ne le voudraient: I am the shape you made me (Électre à sa mère).
La dernière pièce est étrange ; Euripide rend la tragédie presque (ou complètement) absurde. Les personnages nous apparaissent comme les pantins des dieux qui s’amusent, s’ennuient, jouent avec eux. On peut clairement voir, je trouve, la désillusion d’Euripide vis-à-vis de la sphère politique et de la corruption et vis-à-vis des dieux. La volonté des dieux n’est plus synonyme de moralité et de justice. Ils ont leurs propres desseins, tout comme les hommes.
Je n’ai pas mis cinq étoiles seulement parce que la dernière pièce m’a moins plu que les deux premières. Mais toutes trois sont à lire et à relire.
La tragédie est d’autant plus tragique qu’elle est familiale. Ils s’aiment, se haïssent, se déçoivent mutuellement et, évidemment, s’entretuent mais comme Clytemnestre avoue : No matter how you suffer, you cannot hate a child you’ve borne.
La particularité de ce livre, c'est qu'il rassemble les pièces d'auteurs différents à d'époques différentes. Le mythe, au fil des guerres et des politiques, évolue et ouvre une fenêtre sur son époque. Par ailleurs, l’introduction de chaque pièce par Anne Carson recèle de pépites d’informations.
Les pièces parlent de justice : chaque personnage réclame justice (perso, Agamemnon l’a cherché). Mais quand le meurtre est la punition pour un meurtre, ils se piègent eux-mêmes dans un cycle de vengeance. Depuis que leur ancêtre Tantale a tué son propre fils, le lien de sang de cette famille pèse comme une malédiction.
La première pièce d’Eschyle est ma préférée, il faut dire que les répliques de Clytemnestre sont jouissives. Elle ne s'embarrasse d'aucune honte.
You’ll find your loyal wife just as you left her, guarding the house like a good dog, enemy to your enemies, quite unchanged. She broke no seal while you were away. And she knows no more of secret sex or scandal than she does of dipping bronze.
HAHHA j’adore.
J'ai lu la seconde pièce de Sophocle en parallèle avec l'essai d'Anne Carson "gender of sound" sur la voix des femmes, les préjudices attachés et le mutisme qui lui est imposé, un essai qui a enrichi la lecture de cette pièce. En effet, Électre ne peut rien faire, mais elle ne se tait pas. On peut lui reprocher d’être inactive, ennuyante, geignarde si vous voulez, mais elle est tout sauf silencieuse !
My cries are wings: they pierce the cage.
Elle crie, elle pleure, elle insulte et, comme sa mère avoue, fait plus de dégâts encore qu'Oreste (And to tell you the truth, she did more damage). Et les dialogues entre mère et fille sont saisissants de par leur rancœur et violence. Elles qui se ressemblent plus qu’elles ne le voudraient: I am the shape you made me (Électre à sa mère).
La dernière pièce est étrange ; Euripide rend la tragédie presque (ou complètement) absurde. Les personnages nous apparaissent comme les pantins des dieux qui s’amusent, s’ennuient, jouent avec eux. On peut clairement voir, je trouve, la désillusion d’Euripide vis-à-vis de la sphère politique et de la corruption et vis-à-vis des dieux. La volonté des dieux n’est plus synonyme de moralité et de justice. Ils ont leurs propres desseins, tout comme les hommes.
Je n’ai pas mis cinq étoiles seulement parce que la dernière pièce m’a moins plu que les deux premières. Mais toutes trois sont à lire et à relire.
dark
emotional
inspiring
reflective
sad
tense
medium-paced
Plot or Character Driven:
Character
Strong character development:
Yes
Loveable characters:
No
Diverse cast of characters:
Complicated
Flaws of characters a main focus:
Yes