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aceinit's review against another edition
2.0
The simple truth of the matter is that Martin’s masterwork is beginning to collapse under its own weight. A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons were originally meant to be one novel, but it sprawled larger and longer than its author intended, and this long, drawn-out mess is evident in both volumes. While it may be forgiven in Feast, and chalked up to a case of “middle volume in the series” blues, it is borderline unforgivable in Dance. In truth, this book has so ruined me for Martin’s writing that I doubt I will bother with the rest of the series.
Feast introduced us to a score of new characters, all of whom, though interesting, have the feel of only minor players. There will never be a Greyjoy on the Iron Throne, or a Martell. The best they can hope for is to become players of note in some later drama that will take place after this one. But Dance draws this cast of bit players out even more, bringing us a host of unnecessary PoV chapters, an excess of them devoted to characters who only serve to overcomplicate and muddle an already overcast storyline.
We have Quentin Martell of Dorne and his quest to win the fair Daenerys, which ends very badly for him. We have Ser Barristan, watching solemnly and accomplishing little. There is Penny the Dwarf, because apparently Tyrion needed a reason to abandon all his self-respect and no other one could be found. We have, most unforgivably, Jon Connington and the lost Targaryen boy because, the Seven know that what this book has been missing all along was another Targaryen...and probably an impostor at that.
Why, I ask. Why? To further splinter the realm, as is hinted in the epilogue? The realm is already pretty damn splintered. If Martin wants to end things at Book 7, he is going to have to do a lot of work very, very quickly. There seems too much to accomplish in too little of a time.
Then there is the problem of the recurring, central cast...well, those that survived Book Three, at any rate. We have Arya, accomplishing little and less (to use a phrase Martin himself overuses time and time again), mired in learning how to become a faceless killer but mostly repeating the same set of actions over and over and over again. We have Daenerys, who alternates between learning how to be an effective ruler and becoming a libido-driven dopey teenage girl, but who lacks that defining moment of badassery that seems to mark the ending of each of her arcs in previous novels. She is, in fact, so mired in politics and silly infatuations as to be utterly uninteresting, or absent entirely. There is Tyrion, who becomes a complete and utter mockery of himself in this volume (pig jousting...really....REALLY!?). And there is Jon Snow, mired in politics of his own, and silly teenage girls of another nature (did we really need all that Alys Karstark drama? I mean, really?), and so bogged down with wildlings and trying to save yet even more off-screen characters (blah blah blah Mother Mole...blah blah blah Hardhome...wait, who are these people again?), that his own story gets lost in the process. There is Jamie, who gets so few chapters and even less to do in them that I have to wonder what the point was of including him at all.
The only truly memorable returning characters are Theon and Cersei, and both are painted vividly in the page time they are given. To see Theon so utterly transformed actually made me feel sorry for him, something I had thought would never be possible. And Cersei's walk of shame was an utter masterpiece in the breaking down of her character.
There is the problem of every chapter being filled with overlong descriptions of food, and lots of traveling that ultimately amounts to either going in circles or never actually getting anywhere. To be over 1,000 pages long, this book barely moves the plot at all because it is so busy checking in on so many different faces.
There is little suspense in this book. There is almost no way for there to be suspense in this book. A pale rider is coming for Jon Snow. It must be his long-lost sibling? (You know, one of the ones who isn’t Rickon.) But it isn’t, because the reader knows where all the Stark kids are. We have to save Arya from the Boltons. Except that it isn’t Arya, and we all know this. Oh my god, Brienne has a lead on Sansa! Except that Sansa’s not there, because Sansa is with Petyr Baelish. If you already know a character’s quest is in vain, there is no real reason to watch it unfold. No suspense, no drama, not even a heck of a lot of heartache when the truth is revealed to the characters in question because, hello, the reader has known the truth of the matter for at least two books now. You can’t tell a good story if the reader already knows the ending. You can’t waste hundreds and hundreds of pages on quests to nowhere. You can’t expect readers to stay enthralled on never-ending quests if they already know that the questing character is going to meet with disappointment after disappointment because they aren’t even looking on the right bloody continent. It’s poor storytelling. It’s unnecessary storytelling. It’s the wasting of chapters on characters who don’t need to have them, solely for the sake of keeping that character in the reader’s attention. There are only so many times a reader can be faced with this same pointless scenario before they lose all interest. For most characters, Martin already met and surpassed this quota in Book 4.
When the deaths start coming, as they inevitably do, we realize just how lost this narrative has become. They no longer hold the emotional pull or shock value as some of the previous ones did. Remember when readers lost their collective shit because Ned Stark was decapitated? Remember the shock and horror of the Red Wedding? Remember Joffrey’s wedding?
Now tell me, really tell me, that the dopey Dornish prince becoming dragonmeat had the same pull for you. Tell me that Kevan Lannister getting shot in the name of this newfound Targaryen princeling had the same imapct as it would’ve had his death been for, say, Dany’s claim to the throne or even Sansa’s? Tell me that Kevan Lannister's apparent death gave you anything more than a momentary start, and that you felt the same shock you felt when Tyrion put a crossbow bolt into Tywin?
Of course not. Because he's a bit player and always has been, and readers don't care about bit players in the same way they do the main players. And there in lies the problem. There was no moment in this book that made the 1,000 pages before it really pay off. There were no drastic, world-altering reveals. No earth-shattering, realm-splintering deaths. No great battles, only a series of skirmishes that were barely significant.
The only cliffhanger that most readers will really care about is that of Jon Snow’s uncertain fate. I am sure that, somewhere, people are cursing Martin quite profoundly for that one. But, strictly on a personal level, I have never cared for Jon except as an outlet to other characters like Mance Rayder and Melisandre, so I really don’t care if he lives or dies. We need a PoV on the Wall, though, and with Sam temporarily out of the picture, I’m guessing he lives. Death south of the Wall is a lot less permanent than it used to be, something else that is taking away from the dramatic narrative.
And what, exactly, was the damned word Brienne supposedly said to get away from Lady Stoneheart. Sansa, presumably. Or Arya. Either way, thanks for leaving that Volume 4 cliffhanger completely unresolved and having her ride off into the proverbial sunset with Jamie with no explanation of how she got there.
The truth of the matter is that the characters the reader has fallen in love with, and journeyed with for thousands upon thousands of pages, are being shoved aside in favor of lesser faces whose stories are subplots at best. I don’t care about Dorne. I don’t care about 90% of Highgarden. Nothing will ever make me care about Connington or the new Targaryen. Martin has made me lose all my respect for Tyrion and most of it for Dany. There is, in truth, little and less to make me want to come back for the remaining volumes in the series.
Yes, it’s Martin’s book. Yes, he can write it any way that he damn well pleases. But by no means are readers required to stick around for it, though many no doubt will. Until some serious streamlining happens, or until storylines of meaningful characters start to intersect (like the most obvious one of Tyrion and Dany), this series has run its course for me. I will most likely be checking future releases only in CliffsNotes or wiki forms.
I just can’t deal with another 1,000 pages of a road trip to nowhere with a car full of strangers.
Feast introduced us to a score of new characters, all of whom, though interesting, have the feel of only minor players. There will never be a Greyjoy on the Iron Throne, or a Martell. The best they can hope for is to become players of note in some later drama that will take place after this one. But Dance draws this cast of bit players out even more, bringing us a host of unnecessary PoV chapters, an excess of them devoted to characters who only serve to overcomplicate and muddle an already overcast storyline.
We have Quentin Martell of Dorne and his quest to win the fair Daenerys, which ends very badly for him. We have Ser Barristan, watching solemnly and accomplishing little. There is Penny the Dwarf, because apparently Tyrion needed a reason to abandon all his self-respect and no other one could be found. We have, most unforgivably, Jon Connington and the lost Targaryen boy because, the Seven know that what this book has been missing all along was another Targaryen...and probably an impostor at that.
Why, I ask. Why? To further splinter the realm, as is hinted in the epilogue? The realm is already pretty damn splintered. If Martin wants to end things at Book 7, he is going to have to do a lot of work very, very quickly. There seems too much to accomplish in too little of a time.
Then there is the problem of the recurring, central cast...well, those that survived Book Three, at any rate. We have Arya, accomplishing little and less (to use a phrase Martin himself overuses time and time again), mired in learning how to become a faceless killer but mostly repeating the same set of actions over and over and over again. We have Daenerys, who alternates between learning how to be an effective ruler and becoming a libido-driven dopey teenage girl, but who lacks that defining moment of badassery that seems to mark the ending of each of her arcs in previous novels. She is, in fact, so mired in politics and silly infatuations as to be utterly uninteresting, or absent entirely. There is Tyrion, who becomes a complete and utter mockery of himself in this volume (pig jousting...really....REALLY!?). And there is Jon Snow, mired in politics of his own, and silly teenage girls of another nature (did we really need all that Alys Karstark drama? I mean, really?), and so bogged down with wildlings and trying to save yet even more off-screen characters (blah blah blah Mother Mole...blah blah blah Hardhome...wait, who are these people again?), that his own story gets lost in the process. There is Jamie, who gets so few chapters and even less to do in them that I have to wonder what the point was of including him at all.
The only truly memorable returning characters are Theon and Cersei, and both are painted vividly in the page time they are given. To see Theon so utterly transformed actually made me feel sorry for him, something I had thought would never be possible. And Cersei's walk of shame was an utter masterpiece in the breaking down of her character.
There is the problem of every chapter being filled with overlong descriptions of food, and lots of traveling that ultimately amounts to either going in circles or never actually getting anywhere. To be over 1,000 pages long, this book barely moves the plot at all because it is so busy checking in on so many different faces.
There is little suspense in this book. There is almost no way for there to be suspense in this book. A pale rider is coming for Jon Snow. It must be his long-lost sibling? (You know, one of the ones who isn’t Rickon.) But it isn’t, because the reader knows where all the Stark kids are. We have to save Arya from the Boltons. Except that it isn’t Arya, and we all know this. Oh my god, Brienne has a lead on Sansa! Except that Sansa’s not there, because Sansa is with Petyr Baelish. If you already know a character’s quest is in vain, there is no real reason to watch it unfold. No suspense, no drama, not even a heck of a lot of heartache when the truth is revealed to the characters in question because, hello, the reader has known the truth of the matter for at least two books now. You can’t tell a good story if the reader already knows the ending. You can’t waste hundreds and hundreds of pages on quests to nowhere. You can’t expect readers to stay enthralled on never-ending quests if they already know that the questing character is going to meet with disappointment after disappointment because they aren’t even looking on the right bloody continent. It’s poor storytelling. It’s unnecessary storytelling. It’s the wasting of chapters on characters who don’t need to have them, solely for the sake of keeping that character in the reader’s attention. There are only so many times a reader can be faced with this same pointless scenario before they lose all interest. For most characters, Martin already met and surpassed this quota in Book 4.
When the deaths start coming, as they inevitably do, we realize just how lost this narrative has become. They no longer hold the emotional pull or shock value as some of the previous ones did. Remember when readers lost their collective shit because Ned Stark was decapitated? Remember the shock and horror of the Red Wedding? Remember Joffrey’s wedding?
Now tell me, really tell me, that the dopey Dornish prince becoming dragonmeat had the same pull for you. Tell me that Kevan Lannister getting shot in the name of this newfound Targaryen princeling had the same imapct as it would’ve had his death been for, say, Dany’s claim to the throne or even Sansa’s? Tell me that Kevan Lannister's apparent death gave you anything more than a momentary start, and that you felt the same shock you felt when Tyrion put a crossbow bolt into Tywin?
Of course not. Because he's a bit player and always has been, and readers don't care about bit players in the same way they do the main players. And there in lies the problem. There was no moment in this book that made the 1,000 pages before it really pay off. There were no drastic, world-altering reveals. No earth-shattering, realm-splintering deaths. No great battles, only a series of skirmishes that were barely significant.
The only cliffhanger that most readers will really care about is that of Jon Snow’s uncertain fate. I am sure that, somewhere, people are cursing Martin quite profoundly for that one. But, strictly on a personal level, I have never cared for Jon except as an outlet to other characters like Mance Rayder and Melisandre, so I really don’t care if he lives or dies. We need a PoV on the Wall, though, and with Sam temporarily out of the picture, I’m guessing he lives. Death south of the Wall is a lot less permanent than it used to be, something else that is taking away from the dramatic narrative.
And what, exactly, was the damned word Brienne supposedly said to get away from Lady Stoneheart. Sansa, presumably. Or Arya. Either way, thanks for leaving that Volume 4 cliffhanger completely unresolved and having her ride off into the proverbial sunset with Jamie with no explanation of how she got there.
The truth of the matter is that the characters the reader has fallen in love with, and journeyed with for thousands upon thousands of pages, are being shoved aside in favor of lesser faces whose stories are subplots at best. I don’t care about Dorne. I don’t care about 90% of Highgarden. Nothing will ever make me care about Connington or the new Targaryen. Martin has made me lose all my respect for Tyrion and most of it for Dany. There is, in truth, little and less to make me want to come back for the remaining volumes in the series.
Yes, it’s Martin’s book. Yes, he can write it any way that he damn well pleases. But by no means are readers required to stick around for it, though many no doubt will. Until some serious streamlining happens, or until storylines of meaningful characters start to intersect (like the most obvious one of Tyrion and Dany), this series has run its course for me. I will most likely be checking future releases only in CliffsNotes or wiki forms.
I just can’t deal with another 1,000 pages of a road trip to nowhere with a car full of strangers.
dracobiblio's review against another edition
3.0
I enjoyed A Dance with Dragons and certainly liked it more than the previous book. I'd rate it a 3.5 if that was an option. However, I find myself caring less and less as characters are killed off or never heard from again. In addition, the tragedy upon tragedy that some characters endure strains my suspension of disbelief at times. All of that said, I'm too emotionally invested in the series to stop reading and still enjoy it enough to find the time spent reading worthwhile.
ayoung720's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
dark
emotional
slow-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? It's complicated
5.0
ahmed_suliman's review against another edition
4.0
Sadly, I've finished the book .. I can't wait for the next volume.
It's a pretty nice book, expanded more and more than the previous versions, Once you find yourself in the Ice where's no sun fighting the free folks, White walkers and the dead and suddenly you turn the page to find yourself Above the hot sad below the firing sun fighting the masters of the slaves, you flip another time to find yourself in the struggles of the Ironborn Islands, then in king's landing and the clash of lannisters and Tyrells, and from place to place you live the life of it's king.
It ended with a group of assassinations like it was some purge, but why Jon Snow ?! .. the world is running out of good people.
I can not expect what's next but I hope that george do not die before "Winds of the winter".
It's a pretty nice book, expanded more and more than the previous versions, Once you find yourself in the Ice where's no sun fighting the free folks, White walkers and the dead and suddenly you turn the page to find yourself Above the hot sad below the firing sun fighting the masters of the slaves, you flip another time to find yourself in the struggles of the Ironborn Islands, then in king's landing and the clash of lannisters and Tyrells, and from place to place you live the life of it's king.
It ended with a group of assassinations like it was some purge, but why Jon Snow ?! .. the world is running out of good people.
I can not expect what's next but I hope that george do not die before "Winds of the winter".
jackie_fitzgetald's review against another edition
adventurous
challenging
dark
emotional
funny
hopeful
inspiring
mysterious
reflective
sad
tense
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
5.0
fakk3uzi's review
adventurous
dark
tense
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? No
- Diverse cast of characters? Yes
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.0
If you skip all the Meereen plot is a great book. Otherwise….. well……Seems like GRRM has lost control over his own saga
leggup's review against another edition
4.0
It dragged at a few points. I didn't see the Varys plot going the way it did. I still probably like the 3rd book best. Theon's plot was also very interesting.
greevianguy's review against another edition
3.0
The plot was a little hard to follow. Still love all the characters (or love to hate, with some).
janichkokov's review against another edition
5.0
I read the first half of this book about two years ago, took a long break, and then finished it. Since then, I forgot quite how far the show diverged from the book.