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177 reviews for:
God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships
Matthew Vines
4.15 AVERAGE
177 reviews for:
God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships
Matthew Vines
4.15 AVERAGE
informative
medium-paced
challenging
emotional
hopeful
informative
inspiring
reflective
fast-paced
If you are queer or Christian, read this book. If you are both, then you NEED to read this book. A wonderful deconstruction of the clobber passages and theological issues with non affirming theology. This is my 4th time reading this book and it has something for all at all stages of queer Christian life
hopeful
informative
inspiring
medium-paced
Years ago I saw a video of Matthew Vines talking about his biblical position on same sex relationships in a long YouTube video. And it was very “poor me…” which is a point he makes in his book that people relate to real people’s stories. But for me that screams emotions over logic and subjectivism over truth.
Consequentially, Mr Vines, you became your argument’s own worst enemy for people like me who don’t want emotion but want logic and argument and to be brought to his conclusions not emotionally manipulated to them, which is how I felt watching the video. And so I never gave this book a read.
So, I’m very pleasantly surprised that bar the introductory story about his family life and coming out experience and a couple of illustrations, and the last chapter where he tells three people’s stories, it’s actually all very logical.
There’s plenty in here to make you think. There’s plenty of times I was like “nah, how’s he gonna back up that statement.” But mostly he does do so and I’m like, “oh I see that understanding.”
This has certainly opened my eyes and made me think. I have to say though there’s two downsides. Obviously Vines is not the other Vines, he isn’t a linguist. So he doesn’t do a lot of looking into the Hebrew of Leviticus. He sort of just assumes the verses used to gay bash, or non-affirm, say what we translate them as in English, which I’m not too sure on for some of them… especially Leviticus 18:22. He does a bit with Corinthians to look at the two words Paul used; so it’s surprising he doesn’t other places.
The other downside is that he touches on the idea of a heterosexual marriage being a representation of Christ and the church and says the partners need to be different to fill this role and then points out two men or two women are two different people so tada it’s different so one can represent Christ and the other the church. I felt this section was too carnal, to about us, and not enough about how two people of the same gender can be that symbol.
I think this book has great potential to change hearts and minds though. The section on Genesis, and the first marriage and how same Adam and Eve were and that that is the emphasis; not that they’re different. That was very impactful to read.
Also, saying non-affirming Christians are actually doing the opposite of what they think they are doing and it could likely be them that are sinning and causing LGBT people to be less like Christ and further from God is an amazing point. And lastly, how asking gay Christians to be lifelong celibate bastardizes the Christian doctrine of celibacy is a stand out point. The church needs to grapple with that if they are going to continue to be non-affirming. As you’ll have to reinterpret Jesus and Paul on celibacy.
Consequentially, Mr Vines, you became your argument’s own worst enemy for people like me who don’t want emotion but want logic and argument and to be brought to his conclusions not emotionally manipulated to them, which is how I felt watching the video. And so I never gave this book a read.
So, I’m very pleasantly surprised that bar the introductory story about his family life and coming out experience and a couple of illustrations, and the last chapter where he tells three people’s stories, it’s actually all very logical.
There’s plenty in here to make you think. There’s plenty of times I was like “nah, how’s he gonna back up that statement.” But mostly he does do so and I’m like, “oh I see that understanding.”
This has certainly opened my eyes and made me think. I have to say though there’s two downsides. Obviously Vines is not the other Vines, he isn’t a linguist. So he doesn’t do a lot of looking into the Hebrew of Leviticus. He sort of just assumes the verses used to gay bash, or non-affirm, say what we translate them as in English, which I’m not too sure on for some of them… especially Leviticus 18:22. He does a bit with Corinthians to look at the two words Paul used; so it’s surprising he doesn’t other places.
The other downside is that he touches on the idea of a heterosexual marriage being a representation of Christ and the church and says the partners need to be different to fill this role and then points out two men or two women are two different people so tada it’s different so one can represent Christ and the other the church. I felt this section was too carnal, to about us, and not enough about how two people of the same gender can be that symbol.
I think this book has great potential to change hearts and minds though. The section on Genesis, and the first marriage and how same Adam and Eve were and that that is the emphasis; not that they’re different. That was very impactful to read.
Also, saying non-affirming Christians are actually doing the opposite of what they think they are doing and it could likely be them that are sinning and causing LGBT people to be less like Christ and further from God is an amazing point. And lastly, how asking gay Christians to be lifelong celibate bastardizes the Christian doctrine of celibacy is a stand out point. The church needs to grapple with that if they are going to continue to be non-affirming. As you’ll have to reinterpret Jesus and Paul on celibacy.
I finished this one last night and it was interesting. Matthew Vines is a theologically conservative Christian, which means he believes in the full accuracy of the Bible as God’s written word. Nothing in it is in error, which is not a belief I hold.
But through this view of the Bible, Vines tells his story of coming out and reconciling his sexuality with scripture. He shows how scripture does not actually have much at all to do with homosexuality and therefore, Christians should be affirming.
The damage done by not affirming others is indescribable and is very clearly not Christian or loving.
I will say I felt weird reading this book because I don’t believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and it felt very gay/lesbian centered without much thought to other sexual orientations or identities. He does have a few paragraphs on transgender identities and how we need to advocate for them but only a couple paragraphs in a book dedicated to sexuality felt off.
I would still recommend this book, especially to those who hold the Bible in this “high view”. It could help people re-think how they have interpreted passages that have been harmful to others.
But through this view of the Bible, Vines tells his story of coming out and reconciling his sexuality with scripture. He shows how scripture does not actually have much at all to do with homosexuality and therefore, Christians should be affirming.
The damage done by not affirming others is indescribable and is very clearly not Christian or loving.
I will say I felt weird reading this book because I don’t believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and it felt very gay/lesbian centered without much thought to other sexual orientations or identities. He does have a few paragraphs on transgender identities and how we need to advocate for them but only a couple paragraphs in a book dedicated to sexuality felt off.
I would still recommend this book, especially to those who hold the Bible in this “high view”. It could help people re-think how they have interpreted passages that have been harmful to others.
I really admire that Matthew Vines attempts to bridge the gap (chasm?) between being accepting and affirming of gay marriage, and conservative evangelical Christian theology. He is humble, respectful, and I could see him practically bending over backward in his writing to try to please the evangelical theologians and leaders who would view his book with a critical eye. He does a really thorough job in exploring the original languages and cultures around all the passages in the Bible that have been used to declare all homosexual relations a sin, and show how logical and reasonable it is to re-interpret them in light of scriptural and cultural context.
But therein lies the problem, and this is why I think Vines is doomed to fail in his attempts to reconcile the mass of evangelical Christianity (at least for the Boomer generation and probably a good portion of the younger generations). There is no one "clear" "true" interpretation of the Bible, about... anything. People can and have been bringing their own cultural contexts, histories, and biases into their reading of the Bible ever since the Bible began, and that has resulted in thousands of different interpretations, and everyone claims that their interpretation is the right one– and can point to the Bible verses to back it up. It's like Rachel Held Evans has said– you will find in the Bible what you want to find. If you want justification for oppression, you'll find it. If you want liberation of the oppressed, you'll find it.
And that's the rub. By and large, conservative evangelicals don't want to find an interpretation of the Bible that allows them to affirm gay relationships– even monogamous, life-long marriage. The cultural context and history gives them an overwhelming prejudice against the LGBTQ community, and it is this prejudice that allows them to confidently proclaim that their interpretation is the correct one and that the affirming community is just "reading into the Scriptures what they want to see." Of course they (the Evangelicals) are completely blinded to the fact that they are doing the exact same thing.
In the end, probably nobody in the conservative Evangelical community is going to be convinced to change their minds about gay relationships based on reasoning from the Bible. Even though Matthew Vines portrays his dad as doing just that once Matthew himself came out– talking about how his dad began studying all those Bible passages in depth– what he overlooks it that Mr. Vines had a very compelling reason to change his mind about gay relationships– his relationship with his son. I don't doubt Mr. Vines' or Matthew's sincerity in their belief that the Bible truly does allow committed same-sex relationships– but nobody reads the Bible in a vacuum. The people who have changed their minds and moved from non-affirming to affirming are overwhelmingly doing it in the context of relationships that they don't want to lose, whether that's a child, a sibling, a friend, a student. They are doing it in the context of seeing the emotional devastation and other harm that comes from telling someone that their entire sexuality is innately evil. They are doing it in the context of learning for themselves that gay people are not these icky, nasty "others" which the Evangelical church has taught them to fear– that instead they are ordinary, every day people, with strengths and weaknesses and histories and dreams. They are realizing the innate injustice of treating gay people as those who can never be more than second-class citizens in the kingdom of God.
That is why people change their minds about gay relationships. And so that is why, though I admire Matthew's efforts and I will give his book a high rating, I hope that he's concentrating his current efforts in something other than trying to get the conservative Evangelical elite and their followers to listen to him. Because they don’t want to listen.
But therein lies the problem, and this is why I think Vines is doomed to fail in his attempts to reconcile the mass of evangelical Christianity (at least for the Boomer generation and probably a good portion of the younger generations). There is no one "clear" "true" interpretation of the Bible, about... anything. People can and have been bringing their own cultural contexts, histories, and biases into their reading of the Bible ever since the Bible began, and that has resulted in thousands of different interpretations, and everyone claims that their interpretation is the right one– and can point to the Bible verses to back it up. It's like Rachel Held Evans has said– you will find in the Bible what you want to find. If you want justification for oppression, you'll find it. If you want liberation of the oppressed, you'll find it.
And that's the rub. By and large, conservative evangelicals don't want to find an interpretation of the Bible that allows them to affirm gay relationships– even monogamous, life-long marriage. The cultural context and history gives them an overwhelming prejudice against the LGBTQ community, and it is this prejudice that allows them to confidently proclaim that their interpretation is the correct one and that the affirming community is just "reading into the Scriptures what they want to see." Of course they (the Evangelicals) are completely blinded to the fact that they are doing the exact same thing.
In the end, probably nobody in the conservative Evangelical community is going to be convinced to change their minds about gay relationships based on reasoning from the Bible. Even though Matthew Vines portrays his dad as doing just that once Matthew himself came out– talking about how his dad began studying all those Bible passages in depth– what he overlooks it that Mr. Vines had a very compelling reason to change his mind about gay relationships– his relationship with his son. I don't doubt Mr. Vines' or Matthew's sincerity in their belief that the Bible truly does allow committed same-sex relationships– but nobody reads the Bible in a vacuum. The people who have changed their minds and moved from non-affirming to affirming are overwhelmingly doing it in the context of relationships that they don't want to lose, whether that's a child, a sibling, a friend, a student. They are doing it in the context of seeing the emotional devastation and other harm that comes from telling someone that their entire sexuality is innately evil. They are doing it in the context of learning for themselves that gay people are not these icky, nasty "others" which the Evangelical church has taught them to fear– that instead they are ordinary, every day people, with strengths and weaknesses and histories and dreams. They are realizing the innate injustice of treating gay people as those who can never be more than second-class citizens in the kingdom of God.
That is why people change their minds about gay relationships. And so that is why, though I admire Matthew's efforts and I will give his book a high rating, I hope that he's concentrating his current efforts in something other than trying to get the conservative Evangelical elite and their followers to listen to him. Because they don’t want to listen.
challenging
hopeful
informative
inspiring
reflective
medium-paced
Content Warnings
Moderate: Homophobia, Religious bigotry
challenging
informative
reflective
medium-paced
Such an important book that far too few people will read.
challenging
hopeful
informative
inspiring
reflective
medium-paced