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158 reviews for:
Parenting with Love and Logic: Teaching Children Responsibility
Foster Cline, Jim Fay
3.75 AVERAGE
158 reviews for:
Parenting with Love and Logic: Teaching Children Responsibility
Foster Cline, Jim Fay
3.75 AVERAGE
I really liked this book. It has a lot of great information, some of which I've already been able to put to use. This is definitely one we'll have to buy to add to our home library.
The first few chapters of Foster Cline and Jim Fay's Parenting with Love and Logic covers fairly familiar ground for a parenting book, laying out ineffective parenting styles like helicopter parenting (and its latest version, the "turbo-attack helicopter model"), drill sergeant parenting, and laissez-faire parenting. Cline and Foster argue that:
"effective parenting centres around love: love that is not permissive, love that doesn't tolerate disrespect, but also love that is powerful enough to allow kids to make mistakes and to permit them to live with the consequences of those mistakes. Most mistakes do have logical consequences. And those consequences, when accompanied by empathy - our compassionate understanding of the child's disappointment, frustration and pain - hit home with mind-changing power".
What stood out for me was how Cline and Fay framed the WHY of effective parenting, that that we must equip our kids from the earliest possible stage to make good decisions independently. They point out that kids are forced to grow up quicker these days and the better we equip them to cope with the challenges and pressures of contemporary life - drugs, sex, online harms to name just a few - the better they will fare. When kids make what seem like stupid, self-destructive decisions, Fay and Cline argue that "the tragic truth is that many of these foolish choices are the first real decisions they have ever made". When parents constantly make decisions for you, you lack practice in making good choices. The problem with helicopter parents and drill sergeant parents is that they never allow their kids the opportunities to learn how to make decisions (and bear the consequences of decisions poorly made). They make choices on behalf of their kids or spare them the consequences of their actions.
By contrast, the "consultant parent" provides "thoughtful guidance and firm, enforceable limits…based on the safety of the child and how the child's behaviour affects others. [Consultant parents then]…maintain those limits to help children understand that they are responsible for their actions and will suffer reasonable consequences for actions that are inappropriate. However, while the parents are drawing and holding these limits, it is important for them to continue encouraging their children to think about their behavior and help them feel in control of their actions by giving choices within those limits." And as children get older, parents must learn to give them more freedom, and take a step back from "being the enforcer of limits and let reasonable, real-world consequences do the teaching".
Fay and Cline make a distinction with children's behaviours that present a problem to the parents directly, and those that are the kid's problems. Examples of the former include how children relate to their parents (being rude), how they do chores, waking parents up in the middle of the night, misbehaving in public, etc. In such situations, parents have to make clear what boundaries have been crossed and the consequences. Examples of the latter include kids not doing their homework, being tardy for class, being bossy with their friends - in these cases, parents need to help the kids recognise and learn from the consequences of their actions and be very clear that it is the kid's problem, not the parent's to fix. Fay and Cline also suggest that kids should be able to make most decisions without parental input by the time they are eleven or twelve (!!).
Cline and Fay offer various helpful tips on teaching kids to make good decisions - by asking children questions and offering choices, and by letting them bear the consequences of their actions - and also give plenty of examples of how to handle common situations with kids. Some of the ones that stood out for me:
- Learning at affordable prices: Let your kid make mistakes and bear the consequences when the price is small, rather than when they get older and the stakes are much higher. So let your kid go outside without a warm jacket if they can then learn to choose the right clothing for the weather (and not have you choose for them). Cline and Fay even go so far as to suggest that you can let your kid learn that mouthing off to the bigger kids will result in bruises and tears.
- How might we give our kids the message that they are capable and loved through the signals we send when we let them make their own decisions, allow them to help and contribute around the house?
- Set enforceable limits without showing anger, lecturing or using threats. Use enforceable statements like "please feel free to join us for dinner when your room is clean", or "feel free to join us in the living room to watch some TV once your chores are finished".
- When offering choices, both choices must be truly acceptable to you and you are prepared to enforce the choices given. Stay away from alternatives both you and your child know you won't carry out (e.g. leaving them behind in a restaurant). And while you may only give two verbal choices, make sure the child knows that there is an implied third choice: that if he doesn't decide, you'll decide for him.
- Use thinking words, not fighting words: these are words "used in question form and expressed in enforceable statements [that]…place the responsibility for thinking and decision making on the children." Fighting words start with a "no" (e.g. no, you can't do this unless…). Thinking words start with a "yes" (e.g. yes, you can do that as soon as you…)
- "The secret to establishing control is to concentrate on fighting battles that we know we can win…we must pick the areas where we do have control over our kids. Then we must offer choices in those areas." So while we cannot make our kids eat if they don't want to, we can control whether they are at the table or not. And while we cannot control the words that come out of our kids' mouth, we can send them away until they are prepared to speak nicely.
- On allowances, Cline and Fay advocate for letting the kids do what they want with their allowance and not be forced to save it. This teaches them to learn to manage their own money.
- On bullies: Cline and Fay advocate for teaching the kid to learn to cope with bullying - to focus on what is going on inside the child rather than trying to change what is happening on the outside. Parents should also let the kid know that being teased doesn't mean that there is something wrong with him but that it's a problem that other children have.
- On picking up after themselves: Cline and Fay advocate for kids picking up after themselves once they leave kindergarten age. And if they have a messy room, that's their problem. But once the mess encroaches on family spaces, they suggest that parents give a choice of the kids picking up after themselves or parents doing it for them - and the kid not being able to see the toy until they've demonstrated the ability to be responsible for their own stuff.
There are plenty of other situations that Cline and Fay cover - from situations with younger kids like teeth brushing, telephone interruptions, kids waking their parents up in the middle of the night, tantrums, to situations with older kids like peer pressure, sassing and disrespect, swearing and bad language and computer and video games. I imagine that parents would find this a useful resource to dip into periodically.
Cline and Fay acknowledge that giving our kids the opportunity to make decisions and to handle their problems independently is tough. If a child is lazy and has uncomplete homework and poor grades, this can be extremely distressing for the parents and parents "must find a loving way to allow the consequences to do the teaching for the child, whatever the consequences might be". This is a tough thing for parents to hear and practise but Fay and Cline make a compelling case why it's a necessary skill for parents to learn.
"effective parenting centres around love: love that is not permissive, love that doesn't tolerate disrespect, but also love that is powerful enough to allow kids to make mistakes and to permit them to live with the consequences of those mistakes. Most mistakes do have logical consequences. And those consequences, when accompanied by empathy - our compassionate understanding of the child's disappointment, frustration and pain - hit home with mind-changing power".
What stood out for me was how Cline and Fay framed the WHY of effective parenting, that that we must equip our kids from the earliest possible stage to make good decisions independently. They point out that kids are forced to grow up quicker these days and the better we equip them to cope with the challenges and pressures of contemporary life - drugs, sex, online harms to name just a few - the better they will fare. When kids make what seem like stupid, self-destructive decisions, Fay and Cline argue that "the tragic truth is that many of these foolish choices are the first real decisions they have ever made". When parents constantly make decisions for you, you lack practice in making good choices. The problem with helicopter parents and drill sergeant parents is that they never allow their kids the opportunities to learn how to make decisions (and bear the consequences of decisions poorly made). They make choices on behalf of their kids or spare them the consequences of their actions.
By contrast, the "consultant parent" provides "thoughtful guidance and firm, enforceable limits…based on the safety of the child and how the child's behaviour affects others. [Consultant parents then]…maintain those limits to help children understand that they are responsible for their actions and will suffer reasonable consequences for actions that are inappropriate. However, while the parents are drawing and holding these limits, it is important for them to continue encouraging their children to think about their behavior and help them feel in control of their actions by giving choices within those limits." And as children get older, parents must learn to give them more freedom, and take a step back from "being the enforcer of limits and let reasonable, real-world consequences do the teaching".
Fay and Cline make a distinction with children's behaviours that present a problem to the parents directly, and those that are the kid's problems. Examples of the former include how children relate to their parents (being rude), how they do chores, waking parents up in the middle of the night, misbehaving in public, etc. In such situations, parents have to make clear what boundaries have been crossed and the consequences. Examples of the latter include kids not doing their homework, being tardy for class, being bossy with their friends - in these cases, parents need to help the kids recognise and learn from the consequences of their actions and be very clear that it is the kid's problem, not the parent's to fix. Fay and Cline also suggest that kids should be able to make most decisions without parental input by the time they are eleven or twelve (!!).
Cline and Fay offer various helpful tips on teaching kids to make good decisions - by asking children questions and offering choices, and by letting them bear the consequences of their actions - and also give plenty of examples of how to handle common situations with kids. Some of the ones that stood out for me:
- Learning at affordable prices: Let your kid make mistakes and bear the consequences when the price is small, rather than when they get older and the stakes are much higher. So let your kid go outside without a warm jacket if they can then learn to choose the right clothing for the weather (and not have you choose for them). Cline and Fay even go so far as to suggest that you can let your kid learn that mouthing off to the bigger kids will result in bruises and tears.
- How might we give our kids the message that they are capable and loved through the signals we send when we let them make their own decisions, allow them to help and contribute around the house?
- Set enforceable limits without showing anger, lecturing or using threats. Use enforceable statements like "please feel free to join us for dinner when your room is clean", or "feel free to join us in the living room to watch some TV once your chores are finished".
- When offering choices, both choices must be truly acceptable to you and you are prepared to enforce the choices given. Stay away from alternatives both you and your child know you won't carry out (e.g. leaving them behind in a restaurant). And while you may only give two verbal choices, make sure the child knows that there is an implied third choice: that if he doesn't decide, you'll decide for him.
- Use thinking words, not fighting words: these are words "used in question form and expressed in enforceable statements [that]…place the responsibility for thinking and decision making on the children." Fighting words start with a "no" (e.g. no, you can't do this unless…). Thinking words start with a "yes" (e.g. yes, you can do that as soon as you…)
- "The secret to establishing control is to concentrate on fighting battles that we know we can win…we must pick the areas where we do have control over our kids. Then we must offer choices in those areas." So while we cannot make our kids eat if they don't want to, we can control whether they are at the table or not. And while we cannot control the words that come out of our kids' mouth, we can send them away until they are prepared to speak nicely.
- On allowances, Cline and Fay advocate for letting the kids do what they want with their allowance and not be forced to save it. This teaches them to learn to manage their own money.
- On bullies: Cline and Fay advocate for teaching the kid to learn to cope with bullying - to focus on what is going on inside the child rather than trying to change what is happening on the outside. Parents should also let the kid know that being teased doesn't mean that there is something wrong with him but that it's a problem that other children have.
- On picking up after themselves: Cline and Fay advocate for kids picking up after themselves once they leave kindergarten age. And if they have a messy room, that's their problem. But once the mess encroaches on family spaces, they suggest that parents give a choice of the kids picking up after themselves or parents doing it for them - and the kid not being able to see the toy until they've demonstrated the ability to be responsible for their own stuff.
There are plenty of other situations that Cline and Fay cover - from situations with younger kids like teeth brushing, telephone interruptions, kids waking their parents up in the middle of the night, tantrums, to situations with older kids like peer pressure, sassing and disrespect, swearing and bad language and computer and video games. I imagine that parents would find this a useful resource to dip into periodically.
Cline and Fay acknowledge that giving our kids the opportunity to make decisions and to handle their problems independently is tough. If a child is lazy and has uncomplete homework and poor grades, this can be extremely distressing for the parents and parents "must find a loving way to allow the consequences to do the teaching for the child, whatever the consequences might be". This is a tough thing for parents to hear and practise but Fay and Cline make a compelling case why it's a necessary skill for parents to learn.
Better for those with older kids. But the techniques will help if I keep them in mind in the classroom
There is quite a bit of what I would call "90's era" parenting that I don't believe would be appropriate in today's much scarier world (for example, having the kids walk home by themselves as a consequence of fighting in the car). I also think some of the examples are started far too young, I probably wouldn't use most of this advice until the child is at least 4 given that children before then are not capable of regulating their emotions without the presence of their mother/caregiver. I would never tell a two year old to stay in their room until they are ready to be sweet, because a two year old still needs firm attachment to their mother in order to calm down. I also would never leave an infant hungry for a meal after throwing their bottle because that can have lifelong affects on their sense of security and relationship with food.
I still believe the book is very useful, likely for children 4 and older, when they are more able to understand "love and logic". It gives concrete examples of how a parent should respond to their child in a way that displays love and empathy, but without being a pushover. Children will make mistakes, and this book treats those mistakes as learning opportunities. As a child I always felt an overwhelming amount of guilt and shame at any mistake, but reading this book and seeing how a "love and logic" parent would respond to those mistakes shows me that a parent's words are incredibly powerful. When your child messes up, do you make excuses and fix it for them? Do you demean them and punish and make them feel stupid? Or do you empathize with them and make them feel heard while allowing them to face the natural consequence of their mistake?
I borrowed this book from the library, but I think it would be worth it to purchase a copy of my own so I can reference it as my children grow older.
I still believe the book is very useful, likely for children 4 and older, when they are more able to understand "love and logic". It gives concrete examples of how a parent should respond to their child in a way that displays love and empathy, but without being a pushover. Children will make mistakes, and this book treats those mistakes as learning opportunities. As a child I always felt an overwhelming amount of guilt and shame at any mistake, but reading this book and seeing how a "love and logic" parent would respond to those mistakes shows me that a parent's words are incredibly powerful. When your child messes up, do you make excuses and fix it for them? Do you demean them and punish and make them feel stupid? Or do you empathize with them and make them feel heard while allowing them to face the natural consequence of their mistake?
I borrowed this book from the library, but I think it would be worth it to purchase a copy of my own so I can reference it as my children grow older.
There are some good nuggets of advice here, but overall very outdated and sometimes completely outrageous. I would never starve a dog to teach my kids a lesson. Nor will I let him get beat up by bullies so he'll "learn something." I learned a lot of things from getting beat up by bullies: self-esteem issues, fear, social anxieties. The list goes on.
Also doesn't say it anywhere on the cover to my knowledge but there's a lot of religion in this book. If you're not Christian you can still get something out of this book, but there are whole chapters about it and psalms at the beginning of each chapter.
Also doesn't say it anywhere on the cover to my knowledge but there's a lot of religion in this book. If you're not Christian you can still get something out of this book, but there are whole chapters about it and psalms at the beginning of each chapter.
Like most parenting books there's some great ideas and some things that just sound a little too far fetched to be practical. The idea of children learning consequences in a "test" environment where there is still the parental safety net and the natural consequences are usually less severe than those we may face as an adult is in my opinion a great concept. Some of the actual examples given in the book, for me and my children, are more extreme than I'm willing to go. Overall though it's worth a read if you are into parenting books.
Loved the book and the explanations in the first part such as giving children choices and helping them make good choices when they are young and their choices have smaller consequences vs starting to make choices when they are older with larger consequences. I think it's helped us not try to fight for control and relax about smaller things. It's helped us not threaten with things that we are not prepared to follow through with. Small choices have gone over very well.
I do wish that it was separated out by age a little more (at least half of the book seems not relevannt) and some things I would never do (lock your small kid in their room?) and I do wish that there were less religious references, seemed not appropriate.
I do wish that it was separated out by age a little more (at least half of the book seems not relevannt) and some things I would never do (lock your small kid in their room?) and I do wish that there were less religious references, seemed not appropriate.
Highly recommend for all parents to read. There’s a version for young children that I’d like to read as well, to get more practical tips for kids under 6. This book focuses on birth to age 12, with a separate book for the teen years.
The first half of the book focuses on the philosophy, the second half is practical tips for various situations (toilet training, whining, tantrums, tv time, etc)
While I don’t agree with all of the recommendations (example: they advocate for allowance given “just because,” I prefer to tie it into chores, while still having some chores/duties that you aren’t paid for) I love the overarching idea to pose questions and allow children to make choices. The key here is to present two choices, with both options being outcomes that I am okay with! (Rather than one option being unenforceable or clearly the choice I don’t want my child to pick). I also liked the reminder that my child’s problem doesn’t need to be MY problem (unless it actually affects me).
The first half of the book focuses on the philosophy, the second half is practical tips for various situations (toilet training, whining, tantrums, tv time, etc)
While I don’t agree with all of the recommendations (example: they advocate for allowance given “just because,” I prefer to tie it into chores, while still having some chores/duties that you aren’t paid for) I love the overarching idea to pose questions and allow children to make choices. The key here is to present two choices, with both options being outcomes that I am okay with! (Rather than one option being unenforceable or clearly the choice I don’t want my child to pick). I also liked the reminder that my child’s problem doesn’t need to be MY problem (unless it actually affects me).
There are a lot of things I agreed with in this parenting book, although the sample texts of conversations were a little cheesy. Not all techniques would be good with adopted kids, though. For instance all the adoption research and literature I have seen indicates that adopted kids need "time ins" near the parents rather than being separated from family members.
But I do like the techniques of staying calm, presenting the child with choices, and letting the child have to deal with the consequences of his or her choices.
But I do like the techniques of staying calm, presenting the child with choices, and letting the child have to deal with the consequences of his or her choices.