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cg14710's review against another edition
emotional
funny
hopeful
lighthearted
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.5
alliegee9's review against another edition
emotional
hopeful
sad
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? It's complicated
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
2.75
dayoldtea's review against another edition
1.0
Unfortunately, [b:It Starts with Us|60393672|It Starts with Us (It Ends with Us, #2)|Colleen Hoover|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1644605295l/60393672._SY75_.jpg|95171426] had all of the qualities I found annoying about [b:It Ends with Us|27362503|It Ends with Us (It Ends with Us, #1)|Colleen Hoover|https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1470427482l/27362503._SY75_.jpg|43940889], but without any of the qualities that made the first book a 4-star read. To me, this novel was trying to do too many disparate things and so did all of them poorly.
1. Portraying the difficulties of co-parenting with an abusive ex.
The positives:
- I appreciated the perspective that Hoover provided about the difficulties of staying away from an abusive relationship. I was also looking forward to Hoover writing about the difficulties of co-parenting with an abusive ex partner, which is a complex topic that is under-represented and often flattened in fiction.
- Hoover doesn't flatten Ryle to a caricature of an abuser (out of control with anger, malicious, fully fixated, obsessed and unfixable). Typical portrayals of abusers tend to strip away their humanity and make the abuser totally unrelatable. I don't think that abusers should be humanized for their own sake, or that abuse should be minimized or excused; on the contrary, portraying abusers in a complex way that highlights their agency does a lot to refute myths about abuse. E.g., in IEWU, there were red flags at every stage of Ryle and Lily's relationship, but because they were red flags that are often romanticized, the audience was primed to overlook the warning signs - until the physical abuse began. Every time Ryle abuses Lily, it's portrayed as a choice (e.g., in this book,). This refutes the myth that an abuser "can't control their anger"; if that were actually the case, abusers would never make it through stressful things like medical school, and would never save up their explosive episodes for when they're alone with their victim.
- The conversation that Lily has with Marshall in this book where he says that even though, he NEVER had the urge to hit her was powerful and important.
- Hoover explicitly points out that one reason leaving an abusive co-parent is difficult is because by leaving, the survivor only gives up all of the positive moments from the cycle of abuse; the co-parenting relationship means that the survivor will have to be in regular contact and experience the vitriol and negativity.
- Hoover's portrayal of Ryle shows a clear understanding of the psychology of an abusive man in that they are often acting from a sense of wounded entitlement, and lash out because they feel justified in doing so as the "victim" of something their partner did to them that justifies their abusive behavior. E.g., Ryle blaming Atlas for everything, calling him the "common denominator" for their problems (totally erasing Ryle's abusive behavior).
The negatives:
- Hoover barely scratches the surface of this topic, only hinting at the potential difficulties in the future with custody battles, evidentiary difficulties, and the agonizing situations a vindictive abusive ex can create. Maybe this is because she intended ISWU to focus on the romance much more than the serious aspects of the plot, but it often felt like whiplash.
- Unrealistic portrayal of the relationship between Atlas and Ryle. I highly doubt that Ryle I worry that this depiction of abuse is too rosy.
2. Portrayal of the aftermath of parental abuse. I wonder whether Hoover has something unresolved in her own life experiences, because her treatment of abusive parental relationships sometimes leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Atlas has a significant plot involving his estranged abusive mother in ISWU. As far as I can tell, Lily and her mother have never addressed the harm that Lily's mother did to her by enabling Lily's abusive father for years before his death. Lily is still in regular contact with her mother, and seems not to be concerned about her mother's new partner. (Does she think her mother has fixed her picker without any therapy or accountability for her past enabling?) As someone who is estranged from one abusive parent and has had many difficult conversations to get to a happy place with a formerly enabling parent, I think Hoover glazes over this aspect of the aftermath of child abuse in a way that doesn't feel realistic or helpful. (In other words, it's almost as if the parent who merely enabled abuse gets a pass on their enabling behavior, even though they were the adult in the situation. As soon as Lily's father dies, the problem is gone - or, at least, never talked about.)
This links into another problem I have with ISWU....
3. Portrayal of the aftermath of abuse. I understand that Hoover is not writing characters as "ride-or-die" for their relationships (she explicitly says something about how neither Lily nor Ryle's sister are ride-or-die for anyone, and how Lily appreciates that because it means deeper loyalty or some shit). I don't relate to that at all. I think it's wholly appropriate to cut off people for abusive behavior, but that doesn't happen in this universe. Abusers either cut you off (e.g. Ryle's mother kicking him out), die, or you tolerate them.
On one hand, Hoover does show that solidarity with others and creating boundaries with the abuser is necessary for any sense of security after abuse, and I appreciated that Ryle's family facilitates an environment where Lily can do so. It's also helpful to have works of fiction that show survivors not always making perfect choices, or doing the recommended thing at the first instance (e.g. Lily giving Ryle a key and taking time to start establishing more boundaries). On the other, I would have felt better about this series if there were at least one example of a survivor cutting contact with their abuser that portrayed that decision as wholly correct, healthy, and needed -- because sometimes it is.
4. Bad writing. I just think Colleen Hoover's writing is... bad. I wrote it off in IEWU because I figured that Lily was supposed to be young and Not Like Other Girls (which can set someone up for tolerating abuse), but the dual perspective narration just made the bad writing more obvious.
Parts of ISWU felt like rejected scenes from IEWU, especially the notes between Atlas and Lily and bringing back the Dear Ellen bit. That bit was corny and a little grating the first go around, and having it repeated was irritating, not charming.
tl;dr:: this book succeeded neither as a romance, nor as a serious piece of contemporary realistic fiction. I respect the work that Hoover is trying to do with her depictions of intimate violence in this series, but that work is messy and contested. On balance, I'm not sure she should have written this sequel.
1. Portraying the difficulties of co-parenting with an abusive ex.
The positives:
- I appreciated the perspective that Hoover provided about the difficulties of staying away from an abusive relationship. I was also looking forward to Hoover writing about the difficulties of co-parenting with an abusive ex partner, which is a complex topic that is under-represented and often flattened in fiction.
- Hoover doesn't flatten Ryle to a caricature of an abuser (out of control with anger, malicious, fully fixated, obsessed and unfixable). Typical portrayals of abusers tend to strip away their humanity and make the abuser totally unrelatable. I don't think that abusers should be humanized for their own sake, or that abuse should be minimized or excused; on the contrary, portraying abusers in a complex way that highlights their agency does a lot to refute myths about abuse. E.g., in IEWU, there were red flags at every stage of Ryle and Lily's relationship, but because they were red flags that are often romanticized, the audience was primed to overlook the warning signs - until the physical abuse began. Every time Ryle abuses Lily, it's portrayed as a choice (e.g., in this book,
Spoiler
he leaves her apartment, then returns before pressing her against a wall and threatening her- The conversation that Lily has with Marshall in this book where he says that even though
Spoiler
his wife cheated on him early in their relationship- Hoover explicitly points out that one reason leaving an abusive co-parent is difficult is because by leaving, the survivor only gives up all of the positive moments from the cycle of abuse; the co-parenting relationship means that the survivor will have to be in regular contact and experience the vitriol and negativity.
- Hoover's portrayal of Ryle shows a clear understanding of the psychology of an abusive man in that they are often acting from a sense of wounded entitlement, and lash out because they feel justified in doing so as the "victim" of something their partner did to them that justifies their abusive behavior. E.g., Ryle blaming Atlas for everything, calling him the "common denominator" for their problems (totally erasing Ryle's abusive behavior).
The negatives:
- Hoover barely scratches the surface of this topic, only hinting at the potential difficulties in the future with custody battles, evidentiary difficulties, and the agonizing situations a vindictive abusive ex can create. Maybe this is because she intended ISWU to focus on the romance much more than the serious aspects of the plot, but it often felt like whiplash.
- Unrealistic portrayal of the relationship between Atlas and Ryle. I highly doubt that Ryle
Spoiler
showing up to Atlas' place of work to beat him would have played out like that in real life.2. Portrayal of the aftermath of parental abuse. I wonder whether Hoover has something unresolved in her own life experiences, because her treatment of abusive parental relationships sometimes leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Atlas has a significant plot involving his estranged abusive mother in ISWU. As far as I can tell, Lily and her mother have never addressed the harm that Lily's mother did to her by enabling Lily's abusive father for years before his death. Lily is still in regular contact with her mother, and seems not to be concerned about her mother's new partner. (Does she think her mother has fixed her picker without any therapy or accountability for her past enabling?) As someone who is estranged from one abusive parent and has had many difficult conversations to get to a happy place with a formerly enabling parent, I think Hoover glazes over this aspect of the aftermath of child abuse in a way that doesn't feel realistic or helpful. (In other words, it's almost as if the parent who merely enabled abuse gets a pass on their enabling behavior, even though they were the adult in the situation. As soon as Lily's father dies, the problem is gone - or, at least, never talked about.)
This links into another problem I have with ISWU....
3. Portrayal of the aftermath of abuse. I understand that Hoover is not writing characters as "ride-or-die" for their relationships (she explicitly says something about how neither Lily nor Ryle's sister are ride-or-die for anyone, and how Lily appreciates that because it means deeper loyalty or some shit). I don't relate to that at all. I think it's wholly appropriate to cut off people for abusive behavior, but that doesn't happen in this universe. Abusers either cut you off (e.g. Ryle's mother kicking him out), die, or you tolerate them.
On one hand, Hoover does show that solidarity with others and creating boundaries with the abuser is necessary for any sense of security after abuse, and I appreciated that Ryle's family facilitates an environment where Lily can do so. It's also helpful to have works of fiction that show survivors not always making perfect choices, or doing the recommended thing at the first instance (e.g. Lily giving Ryle a key and taking time to start establishing more boundaries). On the other, I would have felt better about this series if there were at least one example of a survivor cutting contact with their abuser that portrayed that decision as wholly correct, healthy, and needed -- because sometimes it is.
4. Bad writing. I just think Colleen Hoover's writing is... bad. I wrote it off in IEWU because I figured that Lily was supposed to be young and Not Like Other Girls (which can set someone up for tolerating abuse), but the dual perspective narration just made the bad writing more obvious.
Parts of ISWU felt like rejected scenes from IEWU, especially the notes between Atlas and Lily and bringing back the Dear Ellen bit. That bit was corny and a little grating the first go around, and having it repeated was irritating, not charming.
tl;dr:: this book succeeded neither as a romance, nor as a serious piece of contemporary realistic fiction. I respect the work that Hoover is trying to do with her depictions of intimate violence in this series, but that work is messy and contested. On balance, I'm not sure she should have written this sequel.
mrsspj's review against another edition
5.0
I loved this book. I loved seeing the possibilities and Lily being loved the way she deserves to be loved. I love that we get to see what it's like for women who try to move on.
newb00k_lover's review against another edition
funny
hopeful
lighthearted
reflective
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? It's complicated
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.0
This just solidified that Atlas is superior
kirstenwaldie's review against another edition
emotional
funny
hopeful
medium-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? A mix
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? Yes
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
4.0
akagle's review against another edition
dark
emotional
hopeful
tense
fast-paced
- Plot- or character-driven? Character
- Strong character development? Yes
- Loveable characters? It's complicated
- Diverse cast of characters? No
- Flaws of characters a main focus? Yes
3.25
All of this could have been an epilogue.
Content Warnings
Graphic: Domestic abuse